Augustine, Gregory and Aquinas on the medium by which the "blessed dead" know about the living.
James Swan at Beggar's All - which is a Calvinist site that has a particular mission of re-fighting the 16th Century - has a post which he thinks makes Jimmy Akins of Catholic Answers look ridiculous. The problem is that Swan doesn't recognize that Jimmy Akin - who is no slouch when it comes to Thomistic theology - is simply restating the position of various early church fathers, who could run Swan in circles if it came to a scripture quoting contest.
Swan's post:
On Catholic Answers Live, Jimmy Akin explains how Mary is aware of prayers:
Jimmy Akin: How does Mary Hear Prayer? (mp3)
If doctrine doesn't need to be grounded in Scripture, anything goes! Actually, Jimmy doesn't even bother to offer a Scripture, which in a way, is rather honest.
Anyone who listens to Akins' explanation, and has worked their way through the first part of the Summa Theologica, will recognize Akins' explanation as a fairly accurate restatement of Aquinas' description of the condition of "separated souls," which he extrapolates to Mary's embodied soul. As for not providing "a Scripture," scriptural texts are found in the works of the early Church Fathers on whom Akin relies.
My response followed:
Akins was simply restating a position held by many Christian theologians, including St. Augustine. Summa Theologica, Part I, Q. 89, article 8:
Gregory and Augustine, however, seem to be divided in opinion as regards the souls of the blessed in heaven, for Gregory continues the passage above quoted: "The case of the holy souls is different, for since they see the light of Almighty God, we cannot believe that external things are unknown to them." But Augustine (De Cura pro Mort. xiii) expressly says: "The dead, even the saints do not know what is done by the living or by their own children," as a gloss quotes on the text, "Abraham hath not known us" (Isaiah 63:16). He confirms this opinion by saying that he was not visited, nor consoled in sorrow by his mother, as when she was alive; and he could not think it possible that she was less kind when in a happier state; and again by the fact that the Lord promised to king Josias that he should die, lest he should see his people's afflictions (2 Kings 22:20). Yet Augustine says this in doubt; and premises, "Let every one take, as he pleases, what I say." Gregory, on the other hand, is positive, since he says, "We cannot believe." His opinion, indeed, seems to be the more probable one--that the souls of the blessed who see God do know all that passes here. For they are equal to the angels, of whom Augustine says that they know what happens among those living on earth. But as the souls of the blessed are most perfectly united to Divine justice, they do not suffer from sorrow, nor do they interfere in mundane affairs, except in accordance with Divine justice.
Swan's demurrer was that Augustine had not said what Akins said, which is an odd response since it concedes that other early Church Fathers had. Of course, for a Reformed Christian, Augustine may have a special authoritative cache.
Swan wrote:
Hi there- I had a few minutes to look up the text Aquinas cited from Augustine. I'm not sure you exactly understood what you quoted, particularly since you mentioned Augustine, as cited by Aquinas, saying the same as Akin.
As far as I can tell, the text of what Aquinas cited from Augustine is not what Mr. Akin is stating, but rather what Gregory is stating.
http://www.fourthcentury.com/on-the-care-of-the-dead/
Here's a breakdown:
Two opinions, Gregory & Augustine.
2. for Gregory continues the passage above quoted: "The case of the holy souls is different, for since they see the light of Almighty God, we cannot believe that external things are unknown to them."
Gregory says the things going on one earth are known to the dead.
3.But Augustine (De Cura pro Mort. xiii) expressly says: "The dead, even the saints do not know what is done by the living or by their own children,"
The dead don't know what's going on on earth.
4. as a gloss quotes on the text, "Abraham hath not known us" (Isaiah 63:16).
Augustine says, "The great patriarchs were ignorant of the deeds done by the people whom they themselves had begotten, even though, because they believed in God, this people was promised to come from their own stock. If that is the case, how can the dead be involved so as to either know or help with the affairs and actions of the living?"
5.He confirms this opinion by saying that he was not visited, nor consoled in sorrow by his mother, as when she was alive; and he could not think it possible that she was less kind when in a happier state;
Augustine says, "If the souls of the dead could indeed involve themselves in the affairs of the living, and if it were really they themselves who are speaking to us when we see them in our sleep, I cannot speak for others, but my pious mother, who followed me over land and sea in order to live with me, would never miss a single night in visiting me. For it cannot be right that in a happier life she would have become crueler to such an extent that when any thing troubles my heart she no longer consoles the sad son whom she loved with a special love and whom she never wanted to see grieving."
6.and again by the fact that the Lord promised to king Josias that he should die, lest he should see his people's afflictions (2 Kings 22:20).
Augustine says, "What then would have been the great benefit in what God promised to that most godly king Josiah when he said that Josiah would die beforehand so that he would not have to see the evils which God threatened would come to that place and people?"
7. Yet Augustine says this in doubt; and premises, "Let every one take, as he pleases, what I say."
Augustine says, "Let each person accept what I am saying as it pleases him. If the souls of the dead could indeed involve themselves in the affairs of the living, and if it were really they themselves who are speaking to us when we see them in our sleep, I cannot speak for others, but my pious mother, who followed me over land and sea in order to live with me, would never miss a single night in visiting me."
8. Gregory, on the other hand, is positive, since he says, "We cannot believe." His opinion, indeed, seems to be the more probable one--that the souls of the blessed who see God do know all that passes here.
Aquinas goes with Gregory.
9. For they are equal to the angels, of whom Augustine says that they know what happens among those living on earth.
Augustine says the angles know what's happening on earth. Gregory holds those in heaven therefore are like the angels.
10.But as the souls of the blessed are most perfectly united to Divine justice, they do not suffer from sorrow, nor do they interfere in mundane affairs, except in accordance with Divine justice.
Aquinas, builds on Gregory's position, those in heaven do not sorrow, and only interfere in human affiars by God's will.
I don't claim to be any sort of expert on Augustine, but I simply don't see how Augusitne, being quoted by Aquinas, is what Akin is saying.
This isn't a bad breakdown of the text. It seems methodical and like a real attempt to determine the "kernel" of the issue. The basic problem with the analysis, however, is that Augustine and Gregory are not disagreeing about whether the blessed dead ever have knowledge of what happens on Earth - they both know that prayers are directed to the blessed dead for intercession - but whether such knowledge is an "ordinary" feature of being in the beatific vision or if it is an extraordinary aspect of that condition. Gregory believes that saints in the beatific vision know by their connection with God through the beatific vision all that occurs on Earth, while St. Augustine suggests - but is not confident - that they don't.
That, by the way, is a "tell" with Augustine: when Augustine is "pushing the envelope" against the majority opinion or tradition, he will signal that this is his opinion and that other people are free to make up their own mind. So, Augustine represents what we might call the "minority position" as to whether the blessed dead ordinarily know what happens on Earth.
My last post noted this from the source cited by James Swan:
Augustine, "On the Care of the Dead."
"18. So then we must confess that the dead indeed do not know what is happening in this life while it is taking place. Afterwards, however, they might hear of it from those who pass from here to there at their death; not indeed everything, but those things which they who are allowed to remember such things are permitted to make known – those things which it is proper for those they are informing to hear. It may be also, that the dead hear some things from the angels who are acting in what happens here, but he to whom all is subject judges what it is proper for each one of them to hear."
Cf. Aquinas, ST, Part I, Question Q. 89, a. 8, reply to objection 1:
The souls of the departed may care for the living, even if ignorant of their state; just as we care for the dead by pouring forth prayer on their behalf, though we are ignorant of their state. Moreover, the affairs of the living can be made known to them not immediately, but the souls who pass hence thither, or by angels and demons, or even by "the revelation of the Holy Ghost," as Augustine says in the same book.
Again, Akin was merely restating what many Christians, including Augustine - and as you concede, Gregory and Aqinas - have said in the past.
The point of your post confuses me.
1. Do you believe that it is impossible for angels or God to inform "separated souls" of the prayers of the living?
2. Do you have an opinion as to whether angels can hear or prayers and relay them to God, and, if so, how do they "hear" our prayers?
3. Is it your belief that "separated souls" have all the capacities of memory, reason, imagination as they did when embodied?
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