Questoris versus Mechanicum Knights

What is the difference between Questoris Knights and Mechnicum Knights in the Horus Heresy?

I've been asked this question a small number of times, but thought I would save it up until I reviewed the Knights out of Liber Mechanicum to make a quick summary.

Background.

In terms of the lore, the difference is remarkably straight forward. The Questoris Knights have sworn loyalty to the Imperium of Man - or rather are the more adventure seeking, plunder happy, wanna be Mechanicum escapees made of loyal noble households and able to wage their own wars should they feel the need and are generally loyal to the original ideals of Unity (but not necessarily, because, you know, Heresy). The Mechanicum Knights serve the Mechanicum directly by contrast.  

Unit Rules.

The stat lines of the common knights are identical as you might expect (i.e., the Questoris Knight Magaera and the Mechanicum Knight Magaera are identical). For this reason, I don't think I will be reviewing each unit distinctly! However, there are a few special rules different between the two. 

Mechanicum gets IWND at 6+ and an added Flare Shield. These are not bad upgrades overall, but the Mechanicum variants do cost slightly more than the Questoris versions. 

Faction Rules.

The biggest and most obvious difference comes from the faction rules. The Questoris Knights get everything to do with the Household ranks, but at the cost of having to field 2 Troops for every Lord of War -- which is to say you have to have Armigers. Not ever Moirax. It has to be Armigers. This isn't all bad since Armigers can serve good roles as anti-marine shooters at long range (in a pinch this can also hurt vehicles with lucky rolling), and melta killers at shorter range. 

Horus Heresy 2e Review: Knight Moirax Talon

Warpstone Flux Rating: ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️

4.5/5 stars, rounded down. Great rules!

Background.

An unseemly tool that wasn't seen much until the Heresy. This is scout class knight able to mount otherwise restricted weaponry. Their pilots were accordingly lesser and expendable in the grand scheme of things - tainted slowly by the otherwise radioactive poison of these machines. 

Strengths.

Excellent customisability is standard here. If you want something to cut through space marines, then I strongly recommend the lightning locks. Or maybe sit back with the conversion beam cannon? Or what about a double siege claw for close combat? 

With 6 wounds at T=7, these knights are relatively fast and can be a pain to almost every enemy who will have to choose them or a bigger target. Take several in a talon to improve your odds.

Weaknesses.

Arguably WS=BS=4 is not so fantastic here, but it will certainly serve its purpose well enough. Ld=8 is a problem. The Greuso Protocol is an interesting advanced reaction that you will also see players take advantage of from time to time, so its not really bad at all and I'm just pulling out a few things that stand out to me.

Builds. 

4x Moirax, all with 2 Lightning Locks (820 points).

Pretty rude, but will absolutely deal with large blobs of power armour opponents.

2x Moirax with Conversion Beam Cannon (420 points).

Two hits from the conversion beam cannon at maximum range is deadly. Even mid-range is going to have the same effect as a las cannon in terms of raw strength. Hang in the back field and take down those enemy tanks swiftly. Take another 2 just to make sure the job gets done either here or in a distinct unit?

Horus Heresy Review: Acastus Knight Porphyrion

Background.
Rounding off our examination of units from Inferno, we have the Knight Porphyrion. This is a brand new chassis in the Horus Heresy and one that is very rare. Indeed, even the largest of Houses only have a couple as it is the ultimate sign of the Machine god's favour.

The background story behind them seem a bit odd as well: only those who have fought a brother over a matter of honour seem to obtain them.

Other than that, they are the supreme enforcers of a House's will over their scions.

Strength.
It is a Knight. It is great.

More specifically though. It has a pair of magna las cannons that are twin linked. These dish out a large blast with Ordnance 2 and AP2 at S=10. Magnificent really!

Combined with this, it comes with auto cannons as standard along with iron storm missiles. Overall, this is a lethal level of firepower that will attract attention from across the board from all enemies. And rightly too. For if this Knight is not dealt with, it will represent a significant threat to most units across the board.

On top of this, it has BS=5 and good armour compared to other knights and a healthy hull point count.

Weaknesses. 
This is not a close combat knight. Forget it. It is a shooty knight.

Builds.
Although I like the naked knight, I do like this one as well:

Porphyrion with autocannons replaced with Irad-Cleanser (495 points).
Ouch. Just ouch. This is deadly to everything. Swap to las cannons if you have the points. It matters little. It is still a beast!

Horus Heresy Review: Mechanicum Ceratus Knight-Atrapos

Background.
Designed during the Great Crusade to take on filthy xenos macro-engines, the Atrapos is now a very rare commodity. Really, its only the Mechanicum who deploy these, but on the odd occasion they will use them as "payment" to a Knightly household should the need arise.

In 30k, they can stand for both a Lords of War choice in a mechanicum army, as well as being in a Questoris Knights army list.

Strengths. 
The armaments of the Atrapos are just as rare as the beast itself. Firstly is the lascutter. This can be used as a beam weapon with a very short range and Destroyer strength. Or as a close combat Destroyer weapon. Both are very nice to say the least.

Secondly is the graviton singularity cannon. This has a 36 inch range and therefore marks the Atrapos out as being a much shorter ranged threat than others in the Questoris army list options. With armour bane, concussive and the potential to shoot off a vortex template, this is a superlatively strong weapon.

The real role of this beast is to take out enemy super heavies. This can be done nicely thanks to the Macro-extinction targeting protocols that give its weapons the twin-linked rule when it points them at enemy super heavies and gargantuan creatures.

Weaknesses.
Should the dice gods not be with you, then the Atrapos can help kill itself by wiping out hull points through unfortunate rolls of the singularity cannon. Whilst it can produce vortex results (as mentioned above), at the opposite end of the scale, it wipes out a hull point with no saves allowed once every six times it is fired, on average. Personally, this is a risk worth taking I would contend!

Also, its worth mentioning the restriction here: only one of these machines is permitted per 2000 points in the army. Hence you're looking at high points games only here.

Builds.
The only option here is to add on occular augmetics. So here it is:
Atrapos with ocular augmetics (445 points).

In terms of house hold ranks, the most obvious is the Arbalester. That said, I could certainly find a use for it as my HQ and wouldn't mind it being the Seneschal. Dolorous and Aucteller are reasonable other choices here too. Situationally, the Implacable might be nice if fighting in a dense city or under hive.

Of course, a Freeblade would be the most entertaining as one could craft an entire narrative around how such a situation ever arose!

Knight Warden

Following on from the Knight Errant, the second of my Knights from the Renegade boxed set has been built as a Knight Warden. I really like the sheer number of shots that the gatling cannon can pump out. But more importantly for 30k is the ability to designate this Knight as an Arbalester -- with sky fire and tank hunters, this can really glance almost anything to death. Lining it up next to a preceptor might be nice as well, but that's a dream for a different day!

On the Gameplay and Deletion of Freeblade

Overview.

Prior to Christmas, I downloaded the Freeblade game application to my mobile device. In short, I wanted something to play with on my travels around the UK that was categorically nothing to do with my work and hopefully something to also help me switch off; proverbially speaking.

Freeblade was released late November 2015. In a nutshell, it features the player as the pilot of an Imperial Knight supported by the Dark Angels space marine chapter. It enables the player to face off against threats like Orks and their machines through a series of missions, whilst adding in a mixture of resource management, upgrades, and general levelling up.

Good Points.

I'm going to start with the very obvious strong point of the game: the graphics. The graphics are absolutely amazing. I've played so many games over the years, ranging from BBC micro computer games like Repton 3 (I'm showing my age here), through to modern massive multi-player online roleplaying games such as Guild Wars 2. 

Freeblade is up there with the best of them in terms of the graphics. 

The Imperial Knight is beautifully animated, and the player can customise the colours of the Knight right from the start. That said, some of the colours needs to be unlocked - much like some of the Knight's other abilities - throughout the game.

The setting is similarly beautifully rendered and animated. The Orks are green, their machines are mean and feature a gritty, grim-darkness, neorealism that strongly evokes the absolute feeling of the far flung future in which war is the only way of life. Surrounding them are plentiful buildings and semi-rural scenes that come directly from built up hive cities, towns and their surroundings. I won't spoil the game itself, but suffice to say that all of the enemies are just as well rendered as the Orks and their machines. 

Really, I cannot overstate how impressive the graphics and animations are in this game. They're simply beautiful with not much to rival it anywhere. On top of this, its all on mobile devices - not a desktop or a laptop, which makes this doubly impressive to my mind.

In terms of gameplay, I really enjoyed the upgrades that were available. Each and every bit of armour has a separate and distinct upgrade possibility (like the head, the calves, etc.) in terms of its statistics that can influence the game. The weapons can be swapped in and out for different things -- thermal cannons, battle cannons and so forth. 

To control the weapons, there are three fundamental taps to do on the screen. Holding down on a specific location will fire the minor hull-mounted weapon at that location until it needs to cool down -- typically after several seconds. This is good for taking out infantry enemies. Holding down two fingers and releasing activates the main weapon. This is generally good for taking out heavily armoured tanks, or ground based infantry that just have to die in a very large blast. Then there is the missile launcher that is activated by a double tap. It launches heaps of missiles at everything on the screen that is nearby. In other words, its excellent at clearing a space. 

Although it takes a little getting used to, the game paces the introduction of these three weapon types over the early chapters of the game nicely, and it becomes easy enough to control. 

The full game is an excellent shoot-em-up style arcade experience brought right up to date. I can't complain about that!

Bad Points.

Look, I'm going to be honest here. The adverts in the game are a pain. At first, they're not such an issue. After several sessions, they really interrupt the game flow in a very peculiar and painful way though. For example, one gets that chance to watch an advert video if one wants to obtain some upgrades for the upcoming mission. These are usually power boosters, loot improvement, or similar. 

It is worse than that though. Almost every upgrade revolves around adverts ultimately. If the player does not want to watch the advert, then there's always the option to pay for extra resources. Clearly, paying for micro-transactions is nothing new in this day and age. Yet it amounts to the usual meme of paying to win. 

If, like me, you do not wish to expend any money on the game, then you need to expect a harder, tougher, more time consuming grind to get the requisite materials to upgrade your Knight and beat the levels. That involves watching adverts. Many of them must be viewed to make good progress if I'm honest. 

Speaking of levels, there are some really tough ones in the game as well. Early on, for instance, I personally got a bit stuck just before the missile launcher rack became available to me. I needed to spend about an entire session repeating previous levels to grind out upgrade materials, crafting better equipment and generally levelling up to be competitive. 

As a lesser complaint, the boosters have to be used as soon as they're obtained. There doesn't appear to be a way of storing them for later!

Deletion.

Ultimately, the grind coupled with my desire to not spend a single penny or cent on the game meant that my progress was halted. I'm not a bad player, I'm not the best either: but my lack of progress was incredibly frustrating. When it just became a bit much to watch yet another advert on the bus or train, I was done with the game. The adverts are so completely integrated with the game that it is a huge detriment to it, in my opinion. Hence an experience that started off as a 4 or 5 star game for me rapidly deteriorated in to a 1 star rating game.

How could the game be improved? I think I would only play it again if it were available as a premium game. That means that I'm willing to pay for it so long as I don't have to endure stupid integrated adverts and that the micro transactions are completely removed. That latter would entail having to re-balance the game though. Hence I'm not expecting it to happen any time soon. It would, however, make the game truly awesome, rather than the current pay to win.

It is such a pity really. I had very high hopes and expectations for this game. Its downfall and ruination came from the monetization and commercial nature of it. I will not be playing it again personally and I've deleted it from my devices. These are just my personal opinions though.

[Image Credit: Official Freeblade Trailer]

Horus Heresy Review: Ceratus Knight-Acheron

Background. 
The Acheron is a Knight built for massacre. Being on the battlefield can mean only one thing: the enemy is to be scoured from existence in purifying flame. And therein is the purpose of the Knight - lots of fire.

Strengths.
Clearly the hell storm ranged flame cannon is the chief weapon here. This means that the Knight needs lots of smaller opponents at reasonably close range. The Acheron is therefore a Knight that wants to get reasonably close and personal with an enemy for battle.

The Reaper chain fist encourages this style of play, designed as it is to rake on enemy tanks with a class D weapon that also ensures a "1" is rerolled on the destroyer damage table.

Weaknesses.
This is not a Knight that can be held back on the rear of the deployment zone. It needs to be upfront and taking point in the battles - particularly against anything in power armour or weaker given the AP3 on the flame cannon. Seriously: the flame cannon is all sorts of amazing against legion opponents -- remember that since it is a template it will ignore cover as well. It couldn't be much better.

The only issue for me is the points cost which is rather high in comparison to other knights in the army list.

Builds.
Keeping the Knight "naked" costs a steep 415 points. But the major question for me is what Household Rank to give it.

I believe that a Seneschal would be fine for this Knight to lead from the front with. An Aucteller might be a good choice given the re-roll on the D class weapon too.

Horus Heresy Review: Ceratus Knight-Castigator

Background. 
For those houses with lots of small critters to take out (Orks, Tyranids - ahem Genestealers, rebels, or the like), the Knight-Castigator is highly favoured.

Strengths.
As would befit a knight that is intended to take out lots of smaller opponents, the Knight-Castigator is armed with the castigator bolt cannon. At heavy 8 with AP3, this is deadly even to space marine squads.

Couple with with the war blade that is a class D melee weapons that can forsake its initiative to automatically hit everything in base contact with it makes this one knight to get up close and personal with the enemy to take them out.

Weaknesses.
It therefore also needs to be played accordingly. It is a support unit and front line melee unit. It won't be taking out tanks from range. Equally, there is the potential to whittle down a light armoured tank just from wiping away hull points from the bolt cannon.

On top of this, the D weapon will almost be guaranteed to finish off a squad that the Knight has hit with the bolt cannon (particularly if its space marines). But perhaps this is not what the player would desire. It might be better to get locked in combat during the enemies turn as well?

Builds.
There are not many options, hence I personally favour the baseline entry for this Knight at 380 points.

In terms of household ranks, I like the arbelester as well as the preceptor for this Knight.

Horus Heresy Review: Ceratus Knight-Lancer

Background. 
Combining speed, agility and a certain amount of grace (well, at least as much as a Knight class chassis can manage), the Ceratus is a bit of a departure from the other Knights in terms of both its height, configuration and purpose on the battlefield.

Strengths.
The shooting attack from the lance of the Ceratus has a concussive component that is excellent against large targets like monstrous creatures. In close combat it also gains a bonus to initiative which is a slight edge over other D class weapons regularly toted by other Knights.

Again in close combat, the Ceratus gains an invulnerable save. This means that this Knight wants to get in to close combat as soon as possible and start to slay things. With a penalty of -1 to other superheavy walkers to hit it, this is a knight that can certainly go toe to toe with enemy knights and come off better.

Weaknesses.
It is necessary to remember that the lance does not have a pie plate associated with it, unlike certain other knights. It is heavy 6 though, which makes it nice in form of compensation. Yet still rather short range.

Builds.
There's not too many options here, so I would go for the basic naked knight for 400 points. In terms of household ranks, I would certainly be thinking of the HQ Seneschal. Although other options might be nice, I would only use them if I had another HQ already selected (which presumably would be a second Ceratus Knight-Lancer in the army list!). In that case, I could be tempted to give a second Ceratus the Aucteller rank. An Arbalester could also be tempting in a pinch too.

Horus Heresy Review: Questoris Knight Styrix

Background. 
For some Houses, the Styrix is a blood lusting machine whose only concern is the death of infantry. In some eyes, this makes them less "worthy" of the title of Knight. But not in all cases. I'm sure the Night Lords would eagerly serve alongside them. Enough said.

Strengths.
There is a clear synergy between the weapons here. The graviton gun is excellent at getting to grips with any type of infantry (whilst potentially doubling up for tank duties), trapping them whilst the volkite chieorovile (and potentially the rad cleanser) mop up the poor survivors.

The only real question here is whether to swap out the Hekaton siege claw for the rad cleanser. This is a big choice as it means giving up a class D melee weapon. Equally, the wrecker rule is not doing much here as this is clearly an anti-infantry Knight.

Weaknesses.
Being so very highly tuned to an anti-infantry rule, one cannot help but think that there are better units out there to deal with infantry. At worst, there are pie plates from other weapons and other classes of Knight that could double up for this duty. It is also one of the pricier knights overall.

Builds.
There are only two choices here: whether to swap out the D class melee weapon for a rad cleanser, and whether to take the ocular augmetics or not. I'm on the fence for the former, it could be really a good idea to take the rad cleanser if one can get close. The lack of torrent is a pain though. The ocular augmetics are okay.

Hence my favoured build here is probably to keep the basic knight (405 points).

In terms of Household Ranks, I would contend that the Preceptor is probably just about the most appropriate for this Knight. I could also see it as being an Arbelaster as well as a Seneschal HQ choice. Then again, it would do as a simple troops choice as well to be fair.

Horus Heresy Review: Questoris Knight Magaera

Background. 
Rare knight chassis combined with weapons of ancient provenance make for the Magaera to be top shock knight in the Questoris Knights army list.

Strengths.
This beast is a bit more survivable than the cousin knights it serves with thanks to its ionic flare shield. In short, it causes the Strength of incoming shots to be reduced.

Combined with its weaponry (which is lower in strength than some of the other choices available) means that this knight is one that is dedicated for infantry hunting, rather than taking out tanks.

In a secondary role, the Magaera will also be very good at clawing down buildings thanks to its Hekaton siege claw. Again, this is not tank hunting.

This unit therefore needs to be played as a front line knight, and not one that is going to be hanging back and firing at other knights.

Weaknesses.
No appreciable weaknesses here. Its a knight. Its not suited for tank hunting. So play accordingly. Further, I would personally favour other knights over this particular build. I'm not super-keen on it as I think other knights do better jobs for the points. But if you like the model and want an anti-building or anti-infanry knight, then why not: go for it. Its just not to my taste.

Builds.
The only question to my mind for the builds it whether to exchange the Hekaton siege claw in favour of a rad cleanser. The bonus of flesh bane and rad phage is immense. But equally, there are probably other weapons in a Questoris army to help do this. Plus its still a template weapon, which means one needs to get in to close range anyway. Therefore, I would personally err on the side of the Hekaton. And save the extra points for other things in the army. I would therefore favour taking a "naked" Magaera for 395 points.

In terms of household ranks, we need to look to exploit the anti-infantry and / or anti-building role of this knight. I'd personally favour Scion Implacable for the anti-building role. I could see Scion Uhlan being okay here, but otherwise, I'd simply opt for a regular Scion Martial to be honest.

Horus Heresy Review: Questoris Knight Errant

Background. 

The Knight Errant is said to be spiteful of spirit due to the bloody nature of these marks of armour that survive long. Only the most iron willed commander being able to truly master them and survive long inside them. On the battlefield, they're basically designed to take out enemy super heavies.

Strengths.
These mark of knights are very similar to the Knight Paladin builds except instead of the battle cannon, they utilise a thermal cannon. This has one less shot, but provides the melta rule. Importantly, this has an AP of 1 which makes it deadly to anything in the game. Even primarchs should have cause to fear a knight errant when they see one.

To be clear, these guys are dedicated to taking out tanks, super heavies and high armour infantry targets like terminators.

Weaknesses.
One should recall at all times that many (all? because of game theory) tanks have armoured ceramite. I've actually written about why I favour melta weapons in 30k before on the grounds that they're not that common because the assumption is that everyone will have armoured ceramite. That may sound contradictory, so go read my article on it for the full background on my views!

As with the Knight Paladin, I'm unconvinced that the bio-corrosive rounds are really required. And the ocular augmetics are a bit situational with respect to night vision. But here, with the melta rule in play, they could be a huge boon.

Builds.
The only real question here to my mind is whether to go for the ocular upgrades or not. I think its probably just about worth it here given the melta weaponry. Hence my suggested build is as follows.

Knight Errant, Occular Augmetics (380 points)
The household ranks that might be favoured here include the HQ selections (both Seneschel and Lord Scion) due to bringing the fight close up, as well as Aucteller in the Elites section (think: outflanking).

Horus Heresy Review: Questoris Knight Paladin

Background. 

The Knight Paladin is something of a baseline entry unit in many ways. This is because in the background it is noted as the most widely employed type of armour and the array of weapons it can potentially take.

Strengths.
Like other knights, it can take a household rank and has an ion shield for an invulnerable saving throw.

The ocular augmetics upgrade give a situational night vision rule, but more importantly can give a re-roll of a 1 on the vehicle damage table. This is therefore a type of knight that should have enemy armour in its sights.

The basic weapon is Ordnance 3 at S=6, but this can be upgraded for free to a more common (at least in 40k) rapid fire battle cannon for two large blasts at S=8 instead. This is probably worth it to be honest. Equally, if you're facing lots of on-foot infantry (Raven Guard perhaps?), then the original battle cannon is probably superior. I would still contend that the rapid-fire cannon is a bit more generalist due to the higher strength.

Between the reaper chainsword and some stomping, the Paladin Knight is a great close combat exponent that enemies have to take seriously.

Weaknesses.
Naturally, there is a bit of a drawback to the ocular upgrade benefits, which only kick in at a range of smaller than 12 inches. Therefore the knight has to get close and fast to any enemy tanks to take advantage of the bonus associated with this.

The bio-corrosive rounds for the heavy stabbers are a bit odd to my eye in some ways. They're supposed to be a bit more of a threat to things like monsters on paper. But that's situational obviously. Just take the reaper chainsword to them instead probably.

Builds.
There's probably a couple of builds in there, but I think the following one is the baseline, and probably the best as well.

Questoris Knight Paladin, Rapidfire battlecannon (375 points)
Team up with almost any household rank, and its good to go.

Horus Heresy Review: Questoris Household Ranks

In the Questoris Knight Crusade Army List, the controlling player is able to select a number of household ranks that can modify the abilities of a given Knight. Some of these represent tradition, whilst others are more about the current pilot of the Knight. Each is associated with a force organisation chart slot.

In this, the first part of the review of the Questoris Knight Crusade Army List, we'll look at each rank in turn.

HQ Ranks:

Seneschal. These guys are the top of the lot. Skilled in combat of most types as well as political intrigue, these guys have survived and prospered where their contemporaries have fallen by the waysides. The bonuses include increasing WS, BS as well as the invulnerable save. This is incredible in combination with close combat knights and therefore almost demands to be placed on a knight capable of leading from the front. With a bonus re roll on the warlord trait, this is an upgrade to be seriously considered if the points are available.

Lord Scion. Another HQ choice, but not quite as senior as the Seneschal. Just a basic bonus to WS and BS here. The Seneschal is much more worth it due to the extra pip in invulnerable save and the potential to get a master-crafted D class weapon from re-rolling the warlord traits.

Elite Ranks:

Preceptor. With a bonus to the reserve rolls as well as granting interceptor and overwatch rules to nearby knights (or bonus hellfire hits), this is a very tactical choice and depends largely on the overall composition of the force as to whether it should be selected or not. 

Aucteller. The player nominates a sworn enemy unit from a range of choices such as a warlord or other super-heavy. If they kill it, its worth d3 victory points. This is very situational at best, but could be a totally fluffy choice for particular army builds. It could work very well with a knight that's able to take out an enemy warlord in a single turn, so look to D class weapons here. 

Legendary Freeblade. Well, this one is fairly generic: select a knight (and or upgrade) and go with it. It is simply marked out by its armour and iconography as the last remainder / renegade / freelance of a particular household. 

Troops Ranks:

Scion Martial. Nothing here - its just a basic knight. 

Scion Aspirant. By dropping pips in WS, BS and invulnerable save, you save some points. Its probably not enough to make much of a difference in large games, but might help in lower points value games. That said, I think the points loss is not worth the loss in invulnerable save and the pips in WS and BS combined. So beware about these knights.

Fast Attack Ranks:

Scion Dolorous. By re-rolling charging distances and sweeping rolls, this upgrade will make the knight in to a close combat expert. Hence use on a knight that wants to be in close combat! This comes at the expense of preferring to charge "worthy" enemies, hence there's a cost to this upgrade as well. 

Scion Uhlan. This is a "free" upgrade, but the "price" is steep. In exchange for scout plus hit and run, the knight loses one pip of frontal AV. Snap shots at targets beyond 24" also provides a strong draw back, especially for weapons reliant on blasts. I'm personally not sure its quite worth it, but suspect other players might like it for the hit and run effect plus scouting on a close combat orientated knight.

Heavy Support:

Scion Arbalester. This is excellent! For the price, we get tank hunters as well as the potential for sky fire if the model doesn't move. Pair with a long range artillery style knight and it'll work out very well indeed. It'll also work well when parked and paired up with a Preceptor rank knight (see above).

Scion Implacable. The bonus to building damage here is situational at best -- does your battlefield feature lots of them? Or is it just fields and forests? On top of this, the infantry crusher rule gives a (sometimes needed) re-roll on the stomp table and provides a bit of extra protection against melta bomb attacks. Cute, but situational. Take the Arbalester instead most times I think!