A Treatise on Why I Don't Like 4e

Please note that I am expressing my personal opinion here.  Mine.  I'm not telling ANYONE who likes 4e that they shouldn't like 4e.  Go for it!  If you are having fun then keep doing it!  Please!  :)

I just read this post this morning and I think it epitomizes FOR ME why I DON'T LIKE or enjoy 4e.

The author has written a very good post and I'm sure that his advice and ideas will be useful to 4e DMs.  This IS NOT a criticism of him.  In fact, you could consider my calling his article out a compliment!  He has created an excellent summary that I think cuts to the very core of why 4e doesn't do it for me.

So, a heartfelt thanks goes out to Ameron.  Sincerely.  Your post articulates exactly why I don't like 4e and I very much enjoyed reading it.  :)

4e, The "Delve Format" and Good Advice

Over at the Fearless DM, the FDM writes about 4e and "what its really about".  Character Optimization.  Fine.  Tried that in 3e and Exalted (ugh).  Not my bag -- probably why I don't play 4e.

Anyway, within his post he gives this bit of advice --

The real lesson of the Delve Format (and my experience at Origins) is this: no matter what the delve format was trying to do- the battles don’t play themselves. And Good DMing has to do with more than just knowing the rules. 

1. If you want to do weak Dms a favor, give them less crap to worry about.Because they can’t manage it. 

2. And if you want to do great Dms a favor, give them less crap to deal with. Because they can do a better job just by being free from the restrictions.  

Either way, less, less, less.  (emphasis mine)

Good advice.

Which would you rather run?  This --

Chaos Scar adventure

 Or this?

A6 80'x110'x40' H Overrun with 20 spriders (sic - or is it?). 1/2 HD 1-3-2-2-4-1-2-3-3-1 HTK,AC 4 non-poisonous 1/bite. Cobwebs slow movement 1/2 normal. Six Zombies;2 HD, 8-4-7-13-15-6 HTK, AC 8, 1-8/hit, thumping on dead rat.

Or even this?

190. BADGERS. The gnomes in #189 have trained thesebadgers as pets and will use them in combat ifnecessary. Three badgers (6, 8, 10 h.p.). 

You've GOT to be KIDDING ME!

Check out these pics of the WotC "Terrain Powers" for 4e:

Wow.  I'm glad they statted those up for me...

House Rules for 4e?

I thought the whole point behind 4e was that it was a complete, interlocking system of finely tuned rules.  Tweaking one part of it has the potential to unbalance the whole thing.

Yet, I keep reading about house rules for 4e in the blogosphere.  What's up with that?

I mean, if you want to make a lot of house rules, wouldn't it be easier to start with a slimmer, less restrictive, less mechanical system?

I know this post sounds like trolling (or flame war fodder) but I really don't mean it that way.  I'm actually posing a question -- why play 4e with all its errata and multiple gigantic rulebooks and beta online character generator (and subscription service) if you are going to house rule the whole thing anyway.

What's the upside?

Whaaaa?

Saw this in my blog reader --

D&D Home Play News

Scheduling and Reporting Update

Chris Tulach

---

For the last few years, D&D play has been able to be scheduled under 2 categories – home (or private) play and public play. With the change in focus to public play, and specifically Wizards Play Network (WPN) play, we have decided to retire the home play category effective January 2011. Home DMs and players don’t need to worry about scheduling and reporting their play through a store-based program like the Wizards Play Network.

For most D&D games, this will have minimal to no impact. We’ve already transitioned our DM and player rewards to our program kits available for D&D Game Days, D&D Encounters, and (coming soon) our WPN Gateway kits. For Living Forgotten Realms, we are in the process of making many of the previously released adventures accessible to the public at large through the Living Forgotten Realms Community Group (community.wizards.com/lfr), and moving forward, that group will be the portal by which players will access new adventure content managed by the community.

Chris Tulach
D&D Organized Play Content Developer
Wizards of the Coast

What the heck are they talking about?  "Home DMs and players don't need to worry about scheduling and reporting their play..."


Whaaaa?

The Dungeon of the Ghost Tower -- 4e becomes S&W! (Part 2)

It's been a month since we concluded this adventure.  I should have posted a recap right away; but I didn't. What is written below is my thoughts and memories of a great adventure.  I know the players enjoyed it and it was a hoot to run.

Of course, I didn't use 4e, so I can't speak to how the adventure would play in that system.  :)

When last we left our heroes, they had discovered to small chambers at the bottom of ladders secreted within sarcophagi --

One led here:

THE MAGIC CIRCLE ROOM:  This room was apparently empty except for the magic circle.

And another led here:

THE STATUE ROOM:  This room had four terrible monsters in it: a fire elemental, a demon, a slime beast and a giant two-headed worm.

The adventurers descended into the MAGIC CIRCLE ROOM and couldn't find a way in.  It was obvious that one of the keys they needed rested in the center of the circle.  Eventually, when searching, the dwarf discovered six different blocks built into the wall that didn't look natural.  Inside these blocks were potions of phasing.  They used one potion to enter and exit the circle.  The key didn't react to the phasing -- it was always solid to the touch.

The adventurers then decided to descend to face the four monsters in the STATUE ROOM.  I made the monsters up on the fly.  The PCs used several of the potions of phasing to increase their AC by 8.  This was vital because the monsters were TOUGH.  I found four minis (some DnD and some MageKnight) that fit the bill and pulled some stats together.

Two monsters got 2 attacks each.  One had poison.  One had acidic slime.  One burned.  Several got bonuses to hit and damage.  :)  In the words of Zach S, "I don't hate you, but I represent people monsters who do..."

The potions only lasted 6 rounds, so I used a die to "countdown" dramatically to the point where the PCs were going to get demolished...

The wizard cast sleep on the giant worm (it was the only thing it would work on and he rolled a bunch of HD)... down it went.  Of course, you can't just KILL something that big with a sword when its asleep.  You can do hella damage to it, but then it will wake up....

Collen had found a frostblade in one of the other sarcophagi, so he went toe-to-toe with the elemental.  Owyn went after the slime and demon.  Kalen went after the worm...

I don't remember much about the combat, but I do know that I needed a 20 to hit the PCs for the first six rounds.   I rolled 5 20's against Owyn alone!  His shield was destroyed by the slime creature's acid.  He got pretty well beat up before the demon went down.

Collen played it conservative right up until the phasing potion wore off.  Then he decided to roll the d30 as his attack roll.  The PCs managed to win initiative and good thing too.  Collen rolled 22 (a crit threat) then 23 on the d30.  Getting maximum damage 15 points --- EXACTLY the amount of damage the fire elemental had left.  Whew!

The PC's now had two keys of four that they needed.

They used some healing, bandaged some wounds, and headed here...

RATS AND SPIDERS

To the left  they fought many rodents of unusual size and eventually, there in the T intersection, a giant spider pounced upon Hanuman causing the donkey to run UP the stairs toward the lab on the right.  Bummer, that's where the other spiders are...

Xavier acted boldly and sprung into action.  He chased after poor Roberto (using a little umph from his feline leg to get over the crowd in the hall).  He found Roberto in the lab being feasted upon by two giant spiders.

Eventually the spiders and rats were defeated.  Roberto was nursed back to health by Cack (who has a knack with horses, etc.) and the third key (and some other interesting items) were recovered.

That led the party here:

THE ROOM OF STATUES

The far room was filled with (surely) animated statues.  Just standing.  Waiting.  

The players spent a lot of time discussing how they could get to the key (held by that large winged statue) without having to fight ALL the animated statues.

Eventually, they came upon the plan that Hanuman would use his monk-y abilities to leap from statue head to statue head, trying to get to the back with a minimum of statue activations.  This plan was based on a lot of (correct) assumptions.

Hanuman made a number of successful rolls, rolling equal to or under his DEX, but just as he closed in on the big statue -- 20.  He missed his target.  

During the leaping, each statue that he touched activated and moved toward the door.  The PCs destroyed them in quick succession. 

I don't remember how the battle concluded, but I do remember that Hanuman got the last key.  He leapt from the tall statue in the far part of the room.  Several statues that had animated followed him.  The party used a rigged rope setup to trip the statues as they entered the 4x4 antechamber.   It was a very cool and very satisfying defeat of this room.

Animated statues are very poor at standing up...

That led the party here, to the concluding chamber...

FINAL CHAMBER

The party assembled the keys into a metallic square.  The square, it was discovered, could be used to open a passage through the purple mist.  They entered the room and did battle with the creatures within.

The burning skeletons (S) were turned (!) and cowered in the back of the room.  The other skeletons (D) joined the fight.  The ghost of Anarus Kalton (G) had six different magical powers and I rolled them randomly each round. 

There was a great give and take in the battle.  Several of the PCs ended up on the DD&DD table.  Each of the ghost's powers were unleashed once.  Its final "Blast of Chaos" corrupted the wizard, turning a large portion of his flesh to a twisting, writhing mass.  Elin, the warrior maiden, was hit in the face.  Her features melted into a featureless mask and her eyes were destroyed.

Just as things looked extremely dire, the party rallied and defeated the evil ghost!

Now, back to town to see Uuthak and his Regen-O-Pod!

If I forgot anything critical, I invite my players to add some info in the comments!  Now back to CotMA!

4e Displacer Beast

Here's a sneak peek -- http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ex/20101108b#71452

The displacer beast has always been a favorite of mine.  I don't know about you guys, but the new displacement rules seem pretty harsh with this new beastie...   Now you have to hit (roll high enough) AND the number has to be EVEN!

Only HALF of your successful hits are going to actually hit.  Wow!  That's tough...

Here's a page from the old 2nd Ed Monstrous Compendium -- I don't have anything else handy...

This 'beast is only AC 4 and you take a -2 penalty to hit.  Quite a bit easier to handle than AC 23 with only a 50% chance that your successful attack roll will hit.  

Hope I don't see any of these beauties in my 4e game...  :)

The Dungeon of the Ghost Tower -- 4e becomes S&W!

*** Spoilers Follow ***

The Dungeon of the Ghost Tower is and adventure from Dungeon Magazine #182.  If you have a DDO subscription, you can download it as a pdf.  I have a DDO subscription because I play an eladrin paladin in a 4e game run by my friend JD.

Anyway, I downloaded the module because I thought it would be interesting :) to read.  It was touted online as using ONLY TILES from the Dungeon Tiles Master Set (which I had recently bought).  It was this adventure that caused me to issue my dungeon building challenge!  (I will be assembling and stocking my DTMS dungeon very soon!  Stay tuned!)

I run an old school game twice per month on Thursday nights.  The adventurers are currently exploring CotMA.  I usually have 3 to 6 players and it's a drop in/drop out game.  

This week, in honor of Halloween, I pitched the guys a little something different; how about clearing a "ghost tower"?  They were game and we departed from CotMA and headed into the Witchlight Fens.

During the start of the adventure, the PCs met Traevus, a merchant/wizard whose brother had been beheaded by an evil wizard.  Traevus tasked the heroes with its return.  He offered them a reward and told them they could keep whatever else they found -- he just wanted his brother's head back.

So, they started here:

The Z's are "Grasping Zombies".  The zombies had HUGE clawed hands.  I gave them AAC 13 and if the zombie hit with a natural 20, it would grab onto the adventurer, pin his arms, and attack at +4 -- biting with unhinged jaws!  

Wow!  Who knew this would be such a tough encounter!  It went 8 rounds.  No one was able to turn any of the beasties (two clerics tried!).  The Owyn the Paladin and Rolf the fighter BOTH went to 0 HPs and had to roll on the Death Dismemberment and Dangerous Damage table!  At one point, Owyn had to roll THREE TIMES during the same round!  He ended up Stunned x2 and Knocked down.  Very lucky!  Eventually the tide turned; Elin and Oryx were key to defeating the zombies.  Kalen was actually very brave, casting Protection from Evil and then putting himself between the zombies and his allies.

Next came the buzzsaw room!

I made this room 8 boxes wide because there were so many PCs in the party.  I rolled a d8 three times when the party stepped on the pressure plates (they didn't look for anything).  They did see a glint of metal on the wall near #2 (the switch to turn the whole thing off) but they moved into the trap unawares.

Row 2, 4 and 5 were rolled and Owyn, Oryx, Kalen and Rolf had to save or be buzzsawed.  Owyn, Oryx and Rolf all opted to roll the d30 and all but Oryx saved.  He took 2d6 (7 pts) of damage from the saw.  Kalen "went all bullet-time" and was able to deftly dodge the sawblade with no effort.  This was related somehow to his putting a coin in the cup of the ape statue.  Interesting!  

Once the blades had run their course, the party ran for the exits -- some forward; some backward.  Collen moved toward the metal glint hoping that he could disable the room.  Whirring and clunking were heard as the trap reset and then --  CLICK -- another set of pressure plates!  Here come the blades again!  I rolled 3d8 and GOT 2, 4 AND 5 AGAIN!  Freaky!  Oryx, Kalen and Collen all had to save -- which they did and Collen turned the whole thing off!  Whew!

Now on to the tombs!

Where to begin?  There were 2 leader skeletons [AAC 14, 3 hits], 2 demonic bats [AAC 16, 4 hits] and a bunch of mook skeletons.

The clerics were able to turn the mook skeletons who ran for the back of the room.  Some entered the purple mist and found themselves coming right back out again.... teleport?  The party dispersed and attacked the leader skeletons and bats.  Collen was extra excited because BATS CAN FLY and he has a +3 sword vs. flying creatures!  The battle went four rounds, Collen, Owyn and Xavier took some serious damage, but the monsters were defeated.

Collen picked up a skull and threw it into the purple mist -- it came straight back out on the same trajectory it was thrown on!  Definitely teleport of some kind...

The party searched the sarcophagi and discovered a narrow shaft with a rickety ladder in #5 and #7 above.  A faint blue glow emanated from the depths of #7 while a leering, bloated yellow demon face looked back up the shaft at the party from #5.

What to do now!?!?  (more to come!)

Red Box Sightings

In a follow-up to my previous post, I was at Wal-mart again and they have sold a copy of the 4e Red Box.

Here's a pic of the shelf that once had two copies...

I was also at Target (I've just moved so the wife and I are doing a bit of shopping) and they had three copies...

We'll see how long they last...

This makes me tired...

Just looking at this exhausts me.  Don't get me wrong -- big bad monsters are fine; stat blocks (that are readable) are fine; cool powers are fine --

This just turns my brain OFF in a way that I can't describe...  I'm sure the creator of this beastie is a fine human being and I'm sure that he enjoys his game and kudos to him for that.

I can say with certainty that I won't be running a 4e game -- EVER!

I remember when ROLEplaying wasn't ROLLplaying...

Watch this clip starting at around 3:00.



Don't get me wrong.  I love Wil Wheaton and there are parts of the scenario that I enjoyed.  I just don't like the part where Chris tells the players that they'll be rolling Streetwise.  Get 2 successes.  Good?  Done.  Now roll Intimidate or Diplomacy.  Get 2 successes.  Good?  Done.

I like the creative part with the Arcana skill.  I'd probably do the same, but when is it that the players get to come up with ideas?

How do they want to find poor Aeofel?  How did they know that they should go beat up some NPCs if the DM didn't tell them?  What about being in character?  What about actually asking the NPCs questions?  What about dead ends?  Wrong questions?  Lies and half-truths?  What about actually acting out the intimidation?

The whole "rollplaying" part seems like a railroad to me...

Then there's the part about making an Arcana check to figure out how the portal works (cop out!), and don't get me started about 1 hp minions...  It took poor Wil five minutes to describe a freaking zombie...  Ugh.

51 Followers! 100th Post!

Wow!  51 people are actually interested in what I have to say.  Amazing!

Thank you all so much for following my blog.  I appreciate your support and I hope you enjoy the musings and comments I post from time to time.

This is also my 100th post!  I started this blog on my birthday (March 1) and today is October 2.  Seven months to reach these milestones.  What a ride!  :)

Here's a discovery from my local Wal-Mart.  I went there to buy a box fan and I stumbled across a box of a different kind (and color)...

PS: the Wal-mart also had Heroscape expansion sets on clearance too...  Set 9.  You might want to look in the clearance aisle at your nearby store!

Monster Book Update:

Bat from Ancient Vaults has agreed to contribute some monsters from his blog to the updated monster book.  Awesome!  He's also offering to contribute some art as well.  I'm very excited!  Thanks Bat!

A friend, Jef W, who is a talented artist and player in my Castle of the Mad Archmage campaign, showed me a fantastic picture on Thursday of an imp that he's working on for the book.  It was in pencil and he's planning on inking it.  It is great!  It shows an action scene and in that way it is reminiscent of EO or Tramp.  I'm looking forward to all the pieces he's willing to share!  Thanks Jef!

Another 4e Observation

I'm not posting this to bash on 4e.  I actually play it sometimes.  It's just a very different game.  For me the jury is still out as to whether or not I actually like it.  I'm still working on that.

I'm posting this as a way to help "figure 4e out".

One thing that I'm figuring out is that "everything is relative" in 4e.  Character progression is merely an illusion.  You get better - the world gets harder.  Not just the monsters -- that I can live with -- I have more dangerous monsters in my game too.  Low level characters are well advised to know their limits.  Not in 4e.  There are no limits.  Everything is "manageable" and "comparable".

Let me illustrate by sharing a story.  I'm a teacher.  There was this other teacher who used to work on a different team.  One day, I learned a little about how she graded.  Every daily assignment was worth 20 points and every test was worth 100 points.  At the end of a 90 day semester, students in her class could reasonably expect to earn over 2000-2500 points during the semester.

One day, I shared with her that assignments in my class were 5 points per day and that my typical test or quiz was about 25 points.  Students in my class could expect to earn about 400 to 500 points during the semester.

She told me that I wasn't assigning enough work if the students only earned 500 points.   :)

We'll, in 4e it seems like with every level you earn; every skill that's improved; every bonus that's added to your character sheet -- even the mundane things get harder.  It's a constant battle for balance.  You have more HPs, so now everything does a little more damage to take your HP advantage away.

Here's a snippet from the 4e DMG and a table (click to embiggen):

Example: Shiera the 8th-level rogue wants to try the classic swashbuckling move of swinging on a chandelier and kicking an ogre in the chest on her way down to the ground, hoping to push the ogre into the brazier of burning coals behind it. An Acrobatics check seems reasonable. This sort of action is exactly the kind of thinking you want to encourage, so you pick a moderate DC: The table says DC 14. If she makes that check, she gets a hold on the chandelier and swings to the ogre. Then comes the kicking. She’s more interested in the push than in dealing any damage with the kick itself, so have her make a Strength attack against the ogre’s Fortitude. If she pulls it off, let her push the ogre 1 square and into the brazier, and find an appropriate damage number. Use a normal damage expression from the table, because once the characters see this trick work they’ll try anything they can to keep pushing the ogres into the brazier. You can safely use the high value, though— 2d8 + 5 fire damage. If Shiera had used a 7th-level encounter power and Sneak Attack, she might have dealt 4d6 (plus her Dexterity modifier), so you’re not giving away too much with this damage.

I think that it is safe to assume that if Shiera was 1st level, the Acrobatics check for that same chandelier would be 10 and the damage from the brazier would be 2d6+3.  Of course, she'd be fighting something weaker than an ogre so that the relative decrease in the damage from the brazier would be about the same effect on that creature (proportionately) as the damage that the ogre takes in the above example.

When Shiera is 30th level, that chandelier will be a check of 28 and those ogres whatever is stronger than ogres will  take 4d8+10.

I guess the chandeliers earn XP from all the adventurers swinging on them...

Damage Changes by Character Level?

... this is from the 4e errata over at Wizards.

I don't play 4e, but apparently if you are 1st level and fall in a pit, you take 1d8+4.

If you are 16th level and fall into that same pit, you take 3d8+11.

It makes my head hurt.  It *really is* a very different game.  :)

Creating 4e Monsters is kinda like a calculus exam!

I want to say up front that I don't know who Joshua Kitchens (aka Draconas) is. I'm sure he's a fine person and I applaud his entry into this contest.

Also, I have nothing against the judges of the contest. They're just judging based upon criteria and that's fine.

Now, check out this link and then come back for my rant. :)

The issue I have, and it's just personal bias I'm sure, is the mechanics inherent in the design of the monster itself.

Who in the hell wants to reference and cross reference other monsters to develop any given monster? I don't.

I don't care what it's CR (challenge rating) is. I don't care if you want to call it an aberration and I want to call it a magical beast. I don't care if its HP are too high. Or its perception skill. Or whatever.

Gawd! What a bunch of hooey!

This is my favorite (or least favorite part):

Compared to other creatures of the same CR:

For this section, I'll try and choose a variety of same CR creatures.

Senses: you gave it darkvision 60ft., perception +17
…..Dire Lion (large animal): low-light vision, scent, perception +11
…..Worg, Winter Wolf (large magical beast): darkvision 60, low-light vision, scent, perception +11
…..nightmare (large outsider): darkvision 60 ft., perception +12
…..gibbering mouther (medium aberration): all-around vision, darkvision 60ft., Perception +12

Conparison: on the low side of average

Hit Points: you gave it 52
…..Dire Lion (large animal): 60
…..Worg, Winter Wolf (large magical beast): 57
…..nightmare (large outsider): 51
…..gibbering mouther (medium aberration): 46

Conparison: within the acceptable range

AC: you gave it 19
…..Dire Lion (large animal): 15
…..Worg, Winter Wolf (large magical beast): 17
…..nightmare (large outsider): 19
…..gibbering mouther (medium aberration): 19

Conparison: on the high side of average

Damage reduction/immunities: you gave it none
…..Dire Lion (large animal): none
…..Worg, Winter Wolf (large magical beast): immune- cold (vulnerable- fire)
…..nightmare (large outsider): none
…..gibbering mouther (medium aberration): amorphous, DR 5/bludgeoning, immune-critical hits, precision damage

Conparison: Your churjiir is right on target. (gibbering mouther has negatives that make up for it’s defenses)

Speed: you gave it 40 ft., burrow 20 ft., climb 20 ft., swim 20 ft.
…..Dire Lion (large animal): 40 ft.
…..Worg, Winter Wolf (large magical beast): 30 ft.
…..nightmare (large outsider): 40ft., fly 90ft (good)
…..gibbering mouther (medium aberration): 10ft., swim 20ft.

Conparison: You are above the average here.

Attack Bonus: you gave it +6, +6, +6, +6
…..Dire Lion (large animal): +12, +13, +13
…..Worg, Winter Wolf (large magical beast): +10
…..nightmare (large outsider): +9, +4, +4
…..gibbering mouther (medium aberration): +7

Conparison: the attack bonuses start to get very diverse at this CR. I think you are within the acceptable range.

Max possible Damage/Round: you gave it 24
…..Dire Lion (large animal): 41
…..Worg, Winter Wolf (large magical beast): 36 ( breath weapon, reflex half)
…..nightmare (large outsider): 32
…..gibbering mouther (medium aberration): 24 (+ 2 con)

Conparison: you are below the average.

Spell like abilities: you gave it 2 at CL 10
…..Dire Lion (large animal): none
…..Worg, Winter Wolf (large magical beast): none
…..nightmare (large outsider): 1 at CL 6
…..gibbering mouther (medium aberration): none

Conparison: a little high, but acceptable.

Special Abilities/attacks: you gave it disease, flea swarm, necrotic wound, rat paramount, and telepathy
…..Dire Lion (large animal): pounce, rake
…..Worg, Winter Wolf (large magical beast): trip, breath weapon (see above)- reflex DC 17
…..nightmare (large outsider): smoke
…..gibbering mouther (medium aberration): blood drain, engulf, gibbering, ground manipulation, spittle

Conparison: you are on the high side of average.

I also love the word "conparison". I don't know if the author of the comment is trying to be funny (he does use compared correctly) but it's used too often to be a typo.

This kind of game element design is too much work to be fun.

Oh and PS: Wow. What a statblock for a single creature. It hurts my brain...