If there is one single trait that almost all people believe daters want in a prospective spouse, including especially the daters themselves, it is that the other person be "reasonably outgoing".
I have never heard anyone - quiet or outgoing - who did not say that they "need someone on the outgoing side because I am (shy) {outgoing} and it would be too uncomfortable if the other person was (, too,) {quieter} because I'd have to carry the whole conversation."
In my opinion*, people are usually quite wrong about this (although this is never evident until they are in a serious relationship). Moreover, because by the time it is evident they understand the other person and communicate quite well, they do not think of their significant other as "on the quiet side", and never quite realize that it was not what they said they were looking for. This results in married people never breaking this misconception and informing their single friend that a "quieter" person may actually be a better fit for them.
* I am unsure as to why this misconception exists, although certainly it is possible that people concentrate too much on what makes for a "fun" date at the very beginning, and the more gregarious someone is, the more "fun" they seem if you otherwise don't know them well.**
** As I finished writing this, a friend suggested that people not be described as quiet, as it essentially prejudices the date to look for that and find them to be too quiet. I would tweak that slightly and just say "don't describe personalities" [at least in regards to how talkative they are if not other ways], as it does not matter one iota how other people describe someone but rather how they find each other to be. Daters often tend (consciously or unconsciously) to look for the negatives on early dates as it is, why prejudice their mind before they've even gone out? Let them see how they enjoy one another's company without having something in the back of their mind to look out for.
There's also this. Someone who may be quiet or quieter when with one person may not be the same way with someone else. Different people equals different chemistry. When a friend of one of my daughters became a kallah the girls observed that he was not very talkative. The kallah, very perceptively, remarked: "It doesn't matter if he doesn't talk to you as long as he talks to me."
ReplyDeletei believe, that on a date, the partner must be willing to help out in the conversation. i call it association- i tell a story/idea, you tell a story/idea that mine triggered, and we go from there.
ReplyDeleteProfK - Agreed, and good line by the kallah.
ReplyDeleteHarry - That's fine, and that's your balance, and you know it. But if you're telling most of the stories/ideas and are happy or content with the input from the girl, that's enough; she doesn't need to be "outgoing" necessarily, just that you need to be able to have nice conversations.
I also think that you can be initially shy and quiet, but as you get comfortable you can be more gregarious and outgoing. I had a very difficult time dating because I WAS quiet at first and dates, I guess, thought this meant no personality. I hated being set up, but had no other way of meeting people (didn't do well on those weekends either, although I went). In Bnei Akiva I had quite a few male friends, none of whom thought of me as quiet.
ReplyDeleteWhen I met my husband, he was so outgoing he could talk to a tree and he was entertaining enough for the both of us. He also made me feel comfortable almost immediately, so I was the Baila I usually am when I'm me (make sense?).
BTW, I think I would be alot better at dating today than I was in my twenties. With age, I've learned the art of small talk and being charming, in most situations anyway.
Speaking as a more talkative person, my issue with going out with someone who is more reserved is that when the other person is quiet, I tend to ramble to fill up the silence. This has the effect of damming up the other person and they can't get a word in edgewise even when they do want to talk, which isn't good either. I don't have a problem with quieter people per se -- but I need someone to hold up their end of the conversation. Someone can be on the quieter side and still engaging on a date.
ReplyDeleteUgh. Either way, I find shidduch dating to be annoying and unnatural. I really do not get how people manage to take awkward early dates with a stranger to the level of an involved and committed relationship.
(Can you tell I'm getting a little jaded?)
Great post!
ReplyDeleteWhen I first started going out, I assumed that as someone who's considered to be quiet, I'd be better off with someone who was the opposite. That is, until I went out with a guy who didn't stop talking the entire date and didn't let me get in a single word edgewise...
And as it turned out, my husband is also considered to be very quiet, but even on our first date, we BA"H had more than enough to talk about. In fact, when we'd get back from 7-8 hour dates, my younger brother would ask, "What do you talk about for that long?!"
:-)
Baila - I also think that you can be initially shy and quiet, but as you get comfortable you can be more gregarious and outgoing.
ReplyDeleteAgreed.
I had a very difficult time dating because I WAS quiet at first and dates, I guess, thought this meant no personality.
Right - which is why I like to tell people to go in with the idea that there is always a date after the one you're on (and why people should approach dating with the idea that they're at least going out with the person a few times). This lets people not be so concerned about how they come across on that one date, and also lets them slowly show their personality. There's no reason people need to be in such a rush to move on to the next one.
When I met my husband, he was so outgoing he could talk to a tree and he was entertaining enough for the both of us.
Sounds like Serach! :)
He also made me feel comfortable almost immediately, so I was the Baila I usually am when I'm me (make sense?).
Absolutely!
BTW, I think I would be alot better at dating today than I was in my twenties. With age, I've learned the art of small talk and being charming, in most situations anyway.
Amen... people sometimes say they "can't understand" how some people are still single - they have so much/such a great personality, etc. Forgetting the other less smart implications of the question, that's just it - nobody is the same as they were when they started dating.
Apple - I hear that difficulty, and yes, they must hold up their end of the conversation.
Someone can be on the quieter side and still engaging on a date.
Exactly.
Ugh. Either way, I find shidduch dating to be annoying and unnatural. I really do not get how people manage to take awkward early dates with a stranger to the level of an involved and committed relationship.
(Can you tell I'm getting a little jaded?)
Heh and agreed. It's why the best shidduch dates seem to be ones where they've already met at some level before or for whatever reason had prior interest. Unless the couple seems to relax into themselves on that first date, it seems as if it heads downhill fast. In a way, I understand more why so many people we know talk about how they "disliked" their spouse at first - that dislike could only come from a real discussion where they got annoyed or whatever. After working through it, though, they had an appreciation that they otherwise couldn't have gotten... and they'd been themselves.
Mrs. S - Hehe. Also true. I know another couple where the sister of the guy noted to me "None of us have any idea if they ever talk, but they seem quite happy...!" Somehow, even those quieter couples are able to enjoy their conversations. :)
My friends tell me that they expect me to marry a guy who is far quieter than I am. I mean, I can easily talk to a doorknob for an hour. The doorknob might get bored, but I certainly don't. ;-)
ReplyDeletePeople who don't know me very well all try to set me up with loud, "crazy" guys, people who do know me well are looking for someone quieter... Truthfully, I don't care. I am perfectly willing to date loud or quiet guys.
It's all how you spin it. People who are may apt to talk may be described as "outgoing" and "friendly," and or "loud" and "talkative." The latter carries negative connotations. In truth, quiet people can be excellent conversationalists, especially because they tend to avoid small talk and get into a real discussion. They also are able to listen before talking, which is something incessant talkers seem unable to do.
ReplyDeleteBut, no question about it, there is a serious bias against shy, introverted people in the world. The word "reserved" that is often applied to them is considered very negative with respect to relationships. It also is a huge liability in many work and school situations.
Really? Maybe it's the people you hang out with (maybe people who like outgoing people like serandez?), but I am a long-time dater and I have never said I want outgoing, and I don't think I'd be attracted to that.
ReplyDeleteSD - Good for you! :)
ReplyDeleteAriella - Well put.
Anon - I'm a reasonably quiet guy, so I don't think that's the case.
And hey - if you're not like that, much respect. By and large I've found everyone say they need someone outgoing and/or they couldn't really date someone who's "quieter".
Baila - you sound like me (except for the married part - I'm not married. And the "when I was in my twenties" - I'm still in my twenties).
ReplyDeleteI think that, in general, adjectives about people are subjective and relative. Quiet. Loud. Smart. Shallow. Pretty. Overweight. Fun. Boring. It's really all in comparison to yourself. You might think someone is quiet because the person is quieter than you, but to someone else who is more quiet, that person might not seem too quiet at all. You might think someone is smart because that person is at your intelligence level or above it, but someone else might not think so. Or you might not think someone is so smart, but someone else might. And the same with any other adjective. Adjectives about people are really just opinions and it is unfair to assert your own opinion onto someone else's date - especially before the two have even met!
Of course there are extremes, but in the general realm of "regular," I don't think so many adjectives should be given about a person who is dating. It also means that you're taking into your own hands what the other person will like, except you're not the one who is dating. It's the other person. So it's only right to allow the other person to make those judgments for his/herself.
(er - him/herself)
ReplyDeleteI echo what Baila said. I think a lot of us are more the "slow to warm up" type, myself included, than the truly shy type. Thats why first dates are always hard.
ReplyDeleteThough I think there is another side of the story to wanting someone outgoing, and that has to do with once you're past the dating stage. It may be more about being married to someone that is outgoing, rather than dating someone who is outgoing. For example, if you see yourself as a quiet or "slow to warm up" person, that can be difficult when you move into a new community (even when you first get married), and having an outgoing spouse may alleviate that somewhat.
Of course, once again, beauty (or in this case level of outgoing-ness) is in the eyes of the beholder.
It may be more about being married to someone that is outgoing, rather than dating someone who is outgoing. For example, if you see yourself as a quiet or "slow to warm up" person, that can be difficult when you move into a new community (even when you first get married), and having an outgoing spouse may alleviate that somewhat.
ReplyDeleteExactly.
I have said I'd like someone more outgoing than myself, but I'm imagining the future. Not the dating experience.