Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Years of the Lamps

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect to History of Arda#Valian Years and the Years of the Lamps. The only "keep" opinion does not address the substantial problems raised in the nomination. I'm noting for the record that there is a consensus to delete this article, but am closing as a redirect anyway to allow for history-merging of any useful material. Sandstein 07:39, 9 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Years of the Lamps

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The article is written with an in-universe perspective with no inline citations for verifiability and also no third-party sources to verify notability. The only reference is a primary source, The Silmarillion. While Tolkien's work is notable, this article in no way meets the criteria of the general notability guideline, being an unnecessary content fork and a plot-only description of a fictional work. The article fulfills the criteria of reasons for deletion and there is no need to merge anything here with another article because this topic, along with other similar ones, is already covered in History of Arda. Jfgslo (talk) 20:30, 1 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Keep, deletion isn't needed if sourcing can be provided. Corvus cornix_talk 20:33, 1 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Literature-related deletion discussions. —Jfgslo (talk) 20:37, 1 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. —Jfgslo (talk) 20:37, 1 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Science fiction-related deletion discussions. —Jfgslo (talk) 20:37, 1 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete; plot-only summaries of fictional work are not appropriate for this encyclopedia, as per WP:NOT. Sourcing is only relevant if people have mentioned the context, impact, or importance of this subject; sources saying "this is what Tolkein said" aren't particularly germane. The Land (talk) 22:29, 1 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per nom Sadads (talk) 23:18, 1 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Merge to History of Arda -- 65.93.13.216 (talk) 05:38, 2 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: I suggest that Corvus get cracking and find some independent, reliable sources which discuss the subject in "significant detail," then. I very much doubt they exist. Ravenswing 21:11, 2 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete no independent reliable sources to WP:verify notability. Shooterwalker (talk) 21:07, 3 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I can only deduce that the people who are saying that no sources exist have made zero effort to determine whether that was in fact the case. I've already found an atlas and three other encyclopaedias. Uncle G (talk) 10:24, 4 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I saw one of the encyclopedias too. But that's a tertiary source... not a secondary source. And probably from one of the publisher's business partners... not an independent source. Shooterwalker (talk) 18:18, 4 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - That argument is weak and highly fallacious. What is unreliable about Karen Wynn Fonstad? What makes you think that Tony Tyler and David Day are not independent of Tolkien? What on Earth possesses you to think that the fact that something is in other encyclopaedias makes it not encyclopaedic? Uncle G (talk) 17:44, 5 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    - Which encyclopedia are we talking about? Tolkien: The Illustrated Encyclopaedia might use the term, but I'm not sure it's using it in a way that's relevant here. (Though, I have to say, I haven't read it) The Land (talk) 18:53, 5 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      - "Use the term"? Indeed, you clearly have not read it, not even the table of contents. Why are you forming an opinion based upon not even reading the tables of contents or indexes of available sources? What weight should the closing administrator give to such an opinion, do you think? Uncle G (talk) 12:47, 7 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I think this is a premature nom - quite a bit of literary commentary exists about Tolkien and I think some digging will uncover enough to source the article (as Uncle G has demonstrated). Although I'm tempted to suggest a merge, but in my view, this can be a stand-alone piece. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 13:47, 4 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm uneasy to keep an article on the grounds "there's probably something about it..."; perhaps people could post details of anything that supports the article? I am not sure a mention in a publication like The Atlas of Middle-Earth, which seems like it's basically a reworking of Tolkein's material in a different format, is enough to justify us having an article.... The Land (talk) 18:59, 4 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I agree I hyave seen this before. If its not notable now remove and and replace it when it is notable. Or try and find some sources that are independant of the subject.Slatersteven (talk) 19:47, 4 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Merge per the IP above. (and by "merge", if there's nothing really not repeated, that would be a redirect) Jclemens (talk) 06:14, 5 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment The trouble is, there are no out-of-universe sources for this - nothing that tells you this is based on Finno-ugrit mythology, or was inspired by Tolkien falling into a netty and seeing a vision of the Virgin Mary, nothing that refers to the difficulties he had writing it because of a lack of ink and paper, or Worthington white shield. What sources there are are reliable, for what they are, but they are only reliable to assure us that these are Tolkien's words, this is Tolkien's world. I've got every book Chris Tolkien published - is there nothing in these sources that refers to him reading it to the other Inklings, or something. No critical reviews that refer to this section. If not, I'm not completely sure what the point of the article is other than regurgitating the book (and yes, I feel exactly the same about all the Black Dagger Brotherhood articles as well, and I'd feel the same about an article on Pride and Prejudice that didn't also tell you something about Jane Austen, or the times she was writing in, or what people thought of her work).Elen of the Roads (talk) 20:10, 5 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- You don't yet have enough books, obviously. ☺ I suggest starting with Whittingham 2008, pp. 118 et seq., taking a quick pass at Duriez 2003, pp. 61, taking a slower pass at Scull & Hammond 2006, pp. 80, 517 et seq. and Sammons 2009, pp. 97 et seq., and then proceeding to Clark & Timmons 2000, pp. 110 and Flieger 2002.
  - Whittingham, Elizabeth A. (2008). The evolution of Tolkien's mythology: a study of The history of Middle-earth. Critical explorations in science fiction and fantasy. Vol. 7. McFarland & Co. ISBN 9780786432813.
  - Duriez, Colin (2003). Tolkien and C.S. Lewis: the gift of friendship. Hidden Spring. ISBN 9781587680267.
  - Scull, Christina; Hammond, Wayne G. (2006). JRR Tolkien companion & guide. Vol. 1. Houghton Mifflin. ISBN 9780618391028.
  - Sammons, Martha C. (2009). "Art Theories and Metaphors". War of the fantasy worlds: C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien on art and imagination. ABC-CLIO. ISBN 9780313362828.
  - Clark, George; Timmons, Daniel (2000). "Horticulture and the Aesthetics of the Elves". J.R.R. Tolkien and his literary resonances: views of Middle-earth. Contributions to the study of science fiction and fantasy. Vol. 89. Greenwood Publishing Group. ISBN 9780313308451.
  - Flieger, Verlyn (2002). Splintered light: logos and language in Tolkien's world (2nd ed.). Kent State University Press. ISBN 9780873387446.
- Literary criticism doesn't begin and end with what Christopher Tolkien read to someone. As evidence of that, although it's not a good source, I give you a self-published work comparing the end of the Age of the Lamps to the destruction of the Twin Towers:
  - Gauthier, Nick (2009). "The Felling of the Lamps". Diversity. Lulu.com. pp. 155–156. ISBN 9781435711570.
- Uncle G (talk) 13:23, 7 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Great. We're getting somewhere. If some of the material you mention ends up in the article and it stops being a plot-only summary, it's a very likely keep. The Land (talk) 19:38, 7 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Quite. It's no good telling me - I don't have any of the books or I'd already have put the content and references in. Someone needs to put it in the article :) Elen of the Roads (talk) 11:47, 8 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.