Interview Philipp Mayer

It has been more than a year since my last guest interview on ethics in Software Development, and I am very happy that Philipp Mayer found the time to answer my questions. When I asked Philipp about ways to contact him, he said "I do not use any social networks for work related things :)" If you are new to the series, I am talking to people in the area of software development about our social responsibility and ethics in general. I started the series in 2015 as part of my own quest for work with meaning.

Philipp why did you choose to work with software?
I chose to work with software in the third year of junior high school ("Unterstufe"). In maths we used the Texas Instruments Voyage 200 calculator on which one could code in TI Basic. Our teacher showed us a few things and told us we would be allowed to store any formula on there as long as we did it via writing an application for it. This motivated many of us to take a closer look at coding. This then led to choosing the IT department of the high school HTL Krems instead of becoming a chef.

When we met, you said that you rarely eat meat. Why do you do that?
It does for environmental reasons. I am aware of the great impact that meat production has on climate. This has led to not buying meat unless I know it is high quality and from a source that I know. As a (working, but still) student, that means that I do not often buy meat. Nowadays when I eat meat, I see it as something special, even if it is just a pair of sausages. An exception where I do eat meat without taking care of the quality is at other people's home if it were thrown away otherwise.

What do you actually do regarding climate change?
Use of public transport. I am a happy owner of the ÖsterreichCard ticket that allows me to take any train at any time within Austria. I do understand, that public transport just does not make sense for many people's everyday way to work at the moment. So I hope for improvements here. A positive thing I recently found out about is the ÖBB rail and drive service that allows me to book an electric car for less than 2 euros/hour on weekends. This is perfect for weekend trips and motivates me even more to not buy a car anytime soon.

Outside of climate change, what do you consider the biggest challenges of our times?
The increasing social and financial inequality.

What else could we do to engage in the topic? For example, did you take part in public protests, donate money to NGOs or sign petitions?

• Protests: no
• Donate money: little
• Sign petitions: some

I think I make a bigger impact by living a thrifty lifestyle and trying to convince people around me to do so as well.

Most of these activities are personal choices. This is great but most of our time is spent on regular work. I would like to see more impact on these important topics of my regular work, just working on "the right things". Do you think that is possible?
In general no, as the companies doing "the wrong things" tend to pay more than others. In his book "Die Kunst des guten Lebens, Rolf Dobelli cites the psychologist Paul Dolan saying that a sound consists of two parameters - frequency and amplitude. And that it is the same when it comes to happiness. There's the hedonistic and the eudaimonistic component. So I think that everyone has to find the right mix for oneself.

How do you think about selecting industry, customer and project based on your values and social responsibility?
I would once more go with the statement made in previous answer. I think it never is a pure financial choice but about the people who you work with and to what extent one sees a meaning in the project.

Let's be more specific here: Would you work for an animal factory? Would you work for a sweatshop exploiting kids in Asia?
Unfortunately, I have to be very generic with this one. For me it depends, if in my position I could enhance the situation for the poor ones (animals, children working in factories etc.) in the organization. Otherwise, I do not think I would see value in my work.

Did you ever reject a customer or an actual project, that would bring you money based on your values?
No, as I did not have the chance to do so in my career, yet.

On the other hand, what would be industries, customers and projects that you would love to work on?
Definitely environmental or social - in terms of improving the life of the weakest ones.

Thank you Philipp

Interview Hanno Embregts

I am happy to start the year with another guest interview on ethics in Software Development: Hanno Embregts is a developer, teacher and frequent speaker from the Netherlands.

Hanno, how did you become a software developer?
Just before I graduated high school I was fairly certain I would end up in Economics. During college I took a few Computer Science classes on top of my Economics curriculum and I quickly discovered I liked programming a lot more than analysing micro-economic models. The concept of creating something new instead of just rehashing other people's ideas really appealed to me. The rest is, as they say, history.

I have been a software developer for over 11 years now, and I still love it immensely. I have worked on for about 10-15 clients, including insurance companies, banks, health care and public transport. I have spoken at 12 international conferences, while actually enjoying it. I used to be terrified of public speaking when I was younger, but it seems I gradually got used to it. Doing something you are quite comfortable with in front of an audience (in my case: playing music and singing) really helps you to get used to 100 pairs of eyes staring at you.

I saw you discussing ethics in software development on Twitter. Why does that matter to you?
Much of it has to do with my Christian faith. As a Christian I try to follow the example that Jesus Christ set when he lived on the earth. He devoted his time mostly to doing good for the people around him. And he specifically noticed the people that were less important in society. So I try to do the same, both in my private and my work life.

Which topic are you most concerned about?
I am very concerned about the gap between the rich and the poor people. The rich are getting richer, and the poor are getting poorer. And although I can consider myself fortunate that I was born in a rich country with a lot of possibilities for education and career, I realise I could have been a lot less lucky. And if that would have been the case, I would want the rich people to help me out.

I try to share my assets with those who are less fortunate. I am quite enthusiastic about Kiva, a lending platform which supplies loans with low or no interest to boost local economies. Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

What do you consider the biggest challenge for humanity?
I think our biggest challenge is to love each other. Not just those who are special to us, but more importantly the other people: Your neighbours, your colleagues, even your enemies. If everyone would do this, there would be no need for wars and conflicts. Food, money and other assets would be distributed more fairly.

When I talk to people, many express concern about meat mass production or pollution. What could we do to engage in the topics?
Caring about the planet is important, because it shows you care about future generations. No-one can solve this problem on their own, but I try to contribute through a few small things in my life. I eat less meat than I did before, and I go to work by bike whenever I can. I moved my financial life (bank accounts, credit card etc.) to ASN Bank, which invests in socially responsible and sustainable projects only. And every month I donate money to Trees For All, an charity organisation that plants trees all around the world. As I said it does not solve the problem instantly, but it makes me feel good and gives me hope for our future.

I am looking for more impact on important topics while doing my regular work. Do you think that is possible in general?
I need to keep working in software development, because I love doing it and I cannot imagine earning my money in any different field. And there are not many jobs for software developers that directly change the world in a significant way. But that does not mean I cannot make an impact. As is pointed out in Episode 7 of the excellent podcast Soft Skills Engineering, somebody has to write the mainframe app that the bank uses so that charities can use this app to change the world in a significant way. And an insurance company has to insure the charity that produces clean water in underdeveloped countries. It may be directly or indirectly, but we are bound to make an impact in the world.

We take many decisions during projects. Which guidance do we have to navigate these decisions?
While I am developing software I try to think of myself as the end user. Would I feel comfortable with my decisions if I had to use this software on a daily basis? Would I find it acceptable to permit this app to access my contact list? Would I be happy when a website after creating an account immediately registers me for an email newsletter that I have not explicitly signed up for? Asking myself these questions nudges me in the right direction more often than not.

How do you think about selecting industry, customer or project based on your values?
I think if you have the chance to choose a project that clearly improves the world in a profound way, then obviously you should go for it. I have worked on a few medical software projects and the fact that my code helped medical staff to cure people motivated me immensely. At the moment I am working on public transport software, where the goal in itself is entirely different. I find that my motivation focuses on different things now, for example on teaching some junior developers the tricks of the trade.

Let's be more specific: Would you work for an animal factory? Would you work for a company producing equipment for an animal factory? Would you work for a sweat shop exploiting kids in Asia?
I would not work for any of them. As I wrote earlier I am a big believer in sharing things equally over all people, so any company that violates human rights, exploits kids or does not pay fair wages is a no-go for me - both as a consumer and a software developer for that matter. This in itself is a challenge to say the least, because how do you find out which industries are OK according to this definition? Sure, there are a lot of certification labels that can help you decide (such as UTZ, FSC, Fairtrade), but every once in a while I read stories about these labels that really disappoint me. So I try to do some research on these industries to get to an informed decision.

That being said, there is also a 'grey area' of companies that I might work for, but only if there is no better alternative. For example, I am a big believer in electric- and hydrogen-powered cars. But I might consider working for Volkswagen or Mercedes anyway. The clothing industry is another good example. There are brands that pay their people fairly and there are those that exploit their workers. But there are also a lot of brands 'in between'. I might consider working for them. Who knows, I could perhaps help them to become a fair-paying brand.

Did you ever reject a client or project based on your values?
I have not, actually. But as I wrote before, in theory there are a lot of projects that I would reject based on my values. I think it has not happened until now, because our industry is booming and there are job openings everywhere. So because of that I have so far been able to choose projects that match my values fairly easily.

On the other hand, what would be projects that you would love to work on?
As I mentioned I work in public transport for a while now, and I like the fact that the train company in my country uses renewable electricity only to power their trains. I might work in the finance industry again and if that happens, I would be really interested to work for a socially responsible bank. Also working for an NGO would be interesting I guess. Still, I like what I do now and from teaching junior colleagues and sharing knowledge at various international conferences I derive a lot of meaning. Perhaps they will use the things I have learnt them in the future when they work at a socially responsible bank or an NGO. It may be directly or indirectly, but we are bound to make an impact in the world.

Thank you Hanno.

Interview Johannes Link

I am happy to announce my next guest in the series of interviews on ethics in Software Development and meaningful work: Johannes Link is a well known XP practitioner, trainer and frequent speaker from Germany.

Johannes, please introduce yourself.
I have been developing software in a professional context for more than 20 years and that is still one of my passions. My understanding of how to do programming was largely shaped by Extreme Programming. Especially its focus on quality and close collaboration are an intrinsic part of how I look on everything software-related.

I know that you are concerned with ethics in Software Development. Why do you care?
I think that everyone's personal views on ethics, morale, purpose of life, "good and bad" should also be reflected in their professional activities. Thus it is obvious to me that I cannot support activities in my job that I would reject when discussing politics with my friends. It came rather as a surprise to me when I learned that other people intentionally differentiate between their personal opinions and their professional activities.

What other topics are you concerned about?
Besides my intention to not harm society I would love to do something meaningful or even "to give back" to the world. I guess it came with age and with having children: Just implementing the next e-commerce shop or the next workflow-system for travel expenses won't excite me any more - regardless of the technology in use. That is why I am always looking for "purpose" in the projects I work on; it might be a personal purpose - e.g. building a new tool to make my life as a developer easier - or a more general purpose like teaching kids the fundamentals of programming.

There is also a "meta"-topic: Raising the awareness in our industry that what we do and how we do it shapes the future life of all. That is why we have to start thinking about responsibility in all our projects, and that contains aspects like security, usability, accessibility and risks.

Outside the topics discussed so far, what do you consider the biggest challenges (for humanity) of our times?
Preserving a world that is worth living in. It is not only the climate that is at stake but also democracy and other traits of humaneness that came with the Age of Enlightenment.

When I talk to people, many express concern about meat mass production or pollution, but almost nobody really acts on it. What could we do to engage in these topics?
I am probably as lazy as most when it comes to getting into action. I donate money and I sign petitions, but does that really help? Maybe it is even corrupting the purpose because it makes us feel better and takes some of the uneasiness away that could otherwise push us to real action.

That said, I do not think we can (and should) all fight the same battles. Choose one or a few topics in which your interest or your anger is the biggest and tackle those. As for me the rise of nationalism and xenophobia inside many countries that seemed to be very stable democracies until recently is finally driving me to speak up. Just watching is no longer enough.

As a software developer, what options do we have to act and do "the right things"?
You always have the possibility to question certain aspects of your work. For example, when you are supposed to collect vast amounts of data that could potentially be used to harm people, you can raise the related ethical and legal issues with your employer. In the end you must be willing to suffer the consequences and not all of us have the luxury (the savings) to do that.

What looks like technical decisions to us might have a real consequence for others: Choose a certain browser as target platform and you exclude some users from using the product. Switch from on-premise deployment to a cloud solution and you make some operation staff redundant. That is why I think that we cannot hide behind the "It is just technology" argument.

Whatever we do we should always ask ourselves:

• Is there a conceivable way that the system to which I contribute will intentionally or unintentionally harm others? If so, how can it be changed to (at least) reduce the probability?
• Am I competent enough to take the technical decisions that I take? This is especially relevant when it comes to security because even as senior developer it is hard to keep up-to-date in that field.
• Is the quality we build high enough to not put the system's purpose at risk? This decision is so context-specific that we often get it wrong when switching domains, e.g. from web store to medical device.

I run into quality conflicts with my customers from time to time. Sometimes, as a last resort, I might refuse to go with a Product Owner's prioritisation because I consider fixing a certain technical debt or design flaw crucial for either the project's sanity or the team's capability to change the system in the future. Saying that I will not continue with the current prioritization can get me the accusation of blackmailing whereas I consider it to be an additional piece of information for the business side. And yes, in those cases I will stand with my word if we won't be able to find a common resolution; so far that happened only once.

How do you think about selecting industry, customer and project based on your values?
Well, we have to earn our daily pasta. When arguing these topics with others, I had to concede that the decision if a certain industry, company or project is in alignment with my ethical views is sometimes very tricky or even undecidable. It can be difficult to see if my contract is contributing to a good or a bad purpose. Sometimes it is obvious. In those cases you have the choice to quit a contract and to tell others why you did it.

There are a few industries that are no-go areas for me. In most other cases it is the concrete project that makes me decide. It is easier for me as an independent developer than it is for an employee, though.

Since the amount of information you get in advance of joining a project is somewhat limited I tend to find out more details through my network or go with my gut feeling. It has not happened yet that I wanted to leave a project for ethical reasons afterwards.

Let's be more specific: Would you work for an animal factory? Would you work for a company producing equipment for an animal factory?
Animal Factory: No. Company producing equipment for an animal factory: I might not even know. If I knew, it would probably depend on the type of equipment since a lot of equipment is very unspecific, e.g. an electric engine can be used for all kinds of things.

Do you have problems with any industries?
There is currently only one area that I would reject on principle: Military and weapons. I consider intelligence organisations to be part of military so add that to the list. And there are a bunch of companies whose offers I would reject without thinking twice.

I struggle with the distinction of "working for" and "buying from". Buying also means supporting, but I am certainly less consequential there.

Did you ever reject a project, that would bring you money based on your values?
Yes. I was recently contacted by an agent offering me a very interesting position both location-wise and considering the technologies in use. When I was told the name of the customer however, I had to reject, since the company's business model is known for harming people and mostly serving the rich. When I told the agent that I won't take the position "out of principal considerations" she was astonished and I explained my motives. She seemed to be really surprised that anyone would do that.

On the other hand, what would be industries, customers and projects that you would love to work on?
The medical field has a lot of potential to improve the lives of many. But the current equilibrium of forces usually takes care that the established industry players win and the patients lose. So that is tricky and I have been working in medicine-related projects a few times. I would love to do paid work for NGOs that work along my personal political views. I have not seen a single project in that area, though.

Thank you Johannes for sharing your views on this important topic.

Interview Gabriel Grill

I have known Gabriel since a long time. We met at an early meetings of the Java User Group Vienna many years ago. I noticed him sharing content concerning diversity. It was just a matter of time until I would make him share his views ;-)

Gabriel, please introduce yourself. Why did you choose to become a software developer?
My name is Gabriel Grill. Currently I am writing my Master's Thesis at the University of Technology, Vienna, and work at the Austrian Centre for Digital Humanities at the Austrian Academy of Sciences. I started programming in high school (HTL). My main reasons for choosing the field at that time were the possibilities for earning money afterwards and the high probability of having a secured job in the future. After I got to know programming more, I liked how seamless one could use this skill to create things, the puzzle solving aspects of it and the creativity one needs to find solutions. I always tried not to focus too much on computing only. Consequently - at university - I took lectures in the social sciences, was politically involved, played the drums, did theatre and so on.

I know that you are concerned with sexism. For example I noticed you sharing content about women in technology. Why does that matter to you?
I believe it is important to be socially engaged in groups, organisations, etc. one is a part of and try to improve conditions for marginalised people there. Inclusion helps everybody. I very much recommend to watch this video on gender-inclusive software design by Distinguished Professor Margaret Burnett, which explains this point much better then I could.

My engagement in tech is not limited to barriers women have to face, I think structural discrimination against this group is still a very big issue in the community. Structural means that the discrimination is ingrained into the culture, normalised, and thereby one has to actively learn, reflect and work against exclusionary mechanisms to change the status quo. In male majority communities, such as the developer community, often so called "bro" cultures emerge. They have certain unwritten rules of how one should act and look like, to be a part of them. An example to me is the beer with "the guys" after work. Bonds are often formed there which in turn may help the people participating to advance in their careers. But there are people who are not into that or do not have the time. Similarly smoke breaks allow those who participate to connect more. Another example, which I have noticed several times in conversations or talks at conferences, are various forms of sexualisation or objectification through jokes or comments, which have exclusionary effects. These seemingly small things together make up a culture in which some have it easier to be a part of. Many of these mechanisms are not unique to developer communities but prevalent in society. The "Pop Culture Detective" is a great YouTube-Channel with many videos on reflections of portrayals of culture in media. I recommend its videos on the "Big Bang Theory" and nerdom especially to male developers (Part 1 - The Adorkable Misogyny of The Big Bang Theory, Part 2 - The Complicity of Geek Masculinity on the Big Bang Theory). I think we all would benefit a lot from a more inclusive and reflective community where for instance I, as a man, would not have to act and dress in certain ways to feel "normal". I would love if our community was much more about supporting one another and thinking about how to improve society.

What other topics are you concerned about?
I usually do political work in the contexts I am directly involved in. Consequently I have been doing a lot of student politics working against different types discrimination based on income, gender, race, accessibility at university. I believe in Austria we have a special responsibility to reflect and remember our past and work against right wing tendencies that want to divide society. In this manner, I want to point to Karl Popper's "Paradox of tolerance" which states: "Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant." I try to take part in protests or actions that I am fond of and generally work on awareness through campaigns.

I am also interested in net politics, privacy and ethics of programming or more generally algorithmic systems. I have created a seminar lecture at TU Wien together with professor Tompits and my colleague Matthias Fassl to enable students to read scientific papers on ethical and social aspects of such systems and have interesting discussions. I try to talk at events or conferences sometimes to raise points I find important. I think generally as developers we need to spend more time on reflecting and learning how to build systems for people. This entails taking diversity into account and creating software which is not only tailored for a small subset of people who are well-off anyway but also useful to people with little money or single parents. I educate myself through lectures mostly in the social sciences, blogs and papers. I recommend to look through YouTube and Twitter, and consume content of people who belong to marginalised groups, such as Feminist Frequency, Kat Blaque and Annie Elainey. There is a lot to learn about other experiences.

I think global warming is a big issue and my actions here are more on a personal level like eating only little meat.

Outside your personal topics discussed till now, what do you consider the biggest challenges (for humanity)?
That is a very tough question to answer. I think it would be arrogant of me to answer this question bluntly. Depending on your circumstances the answers would be very different. For instance to me climate change is a big issue, but there are many people out there who see this differently. I think it is very important to explain to them that doing nothing makes things worse, but there may be no universal human challenges on which everybody completely agrees on. As a middle European, white, male, able-bodied, computer science student to me climate change may be a big issue at the moment, but for people who are starving or live in poverty other priorities apply.

Many developers would probably answer this question somehow similar because it is still a very homogeneous group. That is why I believe questions like this should be asked to people with different backgrounds to get a better answer. This would necessarily include most people that are part of the global South. I think as developers we should look more outside our own bubbles to grow our perspectives. I consider dealing with remnants of colonialism as a very important issue and in turn exploitation of the global South as well as weapon trading and war. Most of the other issues I have mentioned in the previous question.

What do you do to engage in the topics? For example, did you take part in public protests, donate money to NGOs or sign petitions?
I do things like trying to eat less meat and use public transport as much as possible, but ultimately I think most important are policies. The issues mentioned in the previous questions should be tackled collectively through democratic processes by engaging in a political party or other organisation, raising awareness through events or activism and learning on what issues are there and what they really are about. I do many of these things and the ones you mentioned in the question as well, but still time and money is limited and you have to prioritise.

I would like to see more impact of my regular work on these important topics. Do you think that is possible in general?
I do not know if it is possible in general, but I think as developers we are in the position to be able to choose were we want to work. We can ask critical questions, have a positive influence on the projects we work on, raise awareness on issues in the organisation we are a part of and so on. If many developers, consumers and other stakeholders are keen on social and ecological values, businesses will adapt. On the positive side, it seems that social responsibility is becoming a more important topic to many companies at the moment. I believe often more policy is necessary, e.g. to foster fairer working conditions and payment for people in the global south. I think little things like supporting people, talking to colleagues about political issues, learning about ethics or working on improving diversity, are contributions that should be highly valued. Unfortunately a lot of this kind of work, especially care labour, is not paid.

Which guidance do we have to navigate professional decisions? Did you take specific decisions because of your values and social responsibility?
I think it is important as a developer to be aware of your responsibilities and educate yourself on how to deal with them. The social sciences, political science and philosophy or more specific the fields of social informatics and human computer interaction have a lot of knowledge on how to navigate when being faced with political decisions. I strongly suggest to read more literature from these fields.

I want my development to be human-centred. I think about for whom I create something, am I really inclusive, is it ethical or bad for others and how can I best include stakeholders in the decision processes. These question usually do not have a trivial answer and that is why it is important to give them attention.

I have not encountered a situation where I was asked to write a piece of code which I considered to be very unethical, but I am aware that I have made ethical decision myself when coding. In my Master's Thesis I use text mining methods to extract information from news articles. There are many parameters to tune and models to choose and depending on my choices the results will be different. It is my obligation to document this process very well. How I get results and how I present these results is very political. I suggest reading this article which critiques a study that claims to be able to identify sexual orientation through images given to a trained machine learning system.

How do you think about selecting industry, customer and project based on your values and social responsibility?
I think one definitely should take their values and the social responsibility of the company into account. I would not be willing to work for a arms manufacturing company. Thorough research is required here because some companies do not state directly that their work or research may have a secondary use in armed conflicts. I would not like to work at companies in the gambling business or with a focus on surveillance.

Do you have problems with any industries?
It depends on the context very much. I would not want to work for an animal factory but if there is not another option or the factory is somehow vital I would probably reconsider. I think I am not able to give a general answer here, but animal factory and weapon manufacturing are as close as it gets to a no for me. This includes companies like Thales or Glock.

Did you ever reject a customer based on your values?
I did not need to reject a project offer so far, but I have chosen consciously not to apply to certain companies. During my studies I have chosen my projects in a way I felt they could benefit society.

On the other hand, what would be projects that you would love to work on?
At the moment I consider to go into research and work on ethical and social implications of algorithmic systems. I think research in this area could be useful to society. The current trend is towards putting more decision making algorithms in our lives but when these are mostly developed by a homogeneous group with almost no education on ethical and political issues, this becomes a democratic problem on who gets to decide what the algorithms do or what their optimisation goals are. Big companies are looking into these topics, due to critique from the public. I like developing very much. Working on projects that support marginalised people in some way would be interesting, like working on accessibility, support for campaigns or apps against hate. Projects that are very interesting from a technological point of view would also be options for me.

Thank you Gabriel.

Interview Rea

The last Coderetreat was one of the rare Coderetreats that I was participating instead of organizing. I used the opportunity to pair with strangers and Rea was one of my partners. We came to talk about the sponsor of the Coderetreat and if she would work for a company offering products in the defence sector. So I asked her to answer my usual questions. These were her answers:

Rea, why did you choose to become a software developer?
I consider myself a beginner in the field of software development. I chose to switch to software development because in this world where computers play an increasingly important role I don't want to be a bystander, but be able to help shape it. I believe that in the near future software development should be as basic a skill as writing and arithmetic.

You said that you would not work for a company in the defence industry. Why is that so?
Call it defence industry or call it arms industry - its goal is to build something that harms or kills other people. Calling it defence industry rather than attack industry is just a euphemism. In the end it doesn't matter who started it. No defence industry is meant do be just passive-defensive. It always includes active attack as well. I don't want to have a part in this. I don't see why some humans should be worth living, while others can be harmed, maimed, crippled or killed at the whim of somebody in an office somewhere far from the actual action. Even thinking that there is a state funded - and therefore tax payer funded - industry that has the goal to kill makes me sick.

What other topics are you concerned about and what do you do about them?
I am concerned about many topics: Microbial resistance, climate change, loss of privacy, growing fear that manifests itself in hatred against others. I am not a politician and don't want to be one. What I do is to think hard about what I, as a single human being, can do, and then take little steps, one at a time. Even if they are not the most comfortable steps. Doing something, as little as it may be, is more valuable than to despair and do nothing at all. "Many a mickle makes a muckle" - I am convinced that each and every little step counts.

To be more specific, I do my little share against climate change, try to reduce waste and emissions, and have a small footprint. Although I have given up being a strict vegetarian (which I was for about 20 years), I eat meat less than once a month. I don't own a car and try to avoid using one as often as possible. I don't think it is necessary to travel extensively, although I really would love to see the world. I just think the harm it does is worse than the benefits I get. I buy locally and seasonally whenever possible. For me, this has precedence over organic food.

I have recently read that the volume of insect biomass has declined by almost 80% in the last 40 years in areas where it was measured, and other areas are likely to have seen a similar decline. This frightens me. Especially as the reasons can only be speculated about, and there is nothing I can do.

I speak up against racism, homophobia, sexism, etc. when I encounter it. I embrace diversity and try to raise awareness in others. I try not to judge what I don't know. Often, its not a matter of 'good' versus 'bad', but just of 'different'.

As for loss of privacy, again, I try to raise awareness. When people tell me they don't mind being under surveillance, I tell them this: You have nothing to hide when you go to the bathroom. But I bet you would rather not have me watch you there. I don't own a smart phone and still resist the urge to buy one. I try to reduce being tracked while surfing the Internet. I don't want a smart TV or any other smart device in my apartment. I still have an email address with Google, this is something I want to change soon. I do quite well without most of social media. And I wonder again and again how much longer I can keep up this retro lifestyle.

What do you consider the biggest challenges for humanity at the moment?
I think bacteria resistance to antibiotics is one of the biggest dangers we are facing. This, combined with today's mobility, is all you need for a ghastly Hollywood movie scenario. I hope reality won't be as bad.

What could we do to engage in topics like meat mass production or pollution? For example, did you take part in public protests, donate money to NGOs or sign petitions?
As to what we can do - see my answer above. Signing petitions with Avaaz is something I did for a while. I realised that doing this makes me lazy in other ways. Signing gives me this feeling of accomplishment, but there is more I can do, in my own vicinity. The best way to fight meat mass production is not to consume this meat. For some people this is a bigger departion from their habits than for others, granted. But if you skip meat once a week, this is better than nothing. Or skip every other day. Or have meat once a week only. Just reduce your consumption. I think the difference in production cost between vegetables and meat should be reflected in the price. Not only the monetary price, but also the price as concerns the ecological footprint.

I have a split relationship with NGOs. I used to support Greenpeace, for example, but don't do that any more. One of the reasons is that I strongly disagree with their campaign against GMOs. Let's not get too deep into this here. But I do support NGOs as such, I think it is important that there are organisations that are independent of governments and other big influencers.

Do you think it is possible to work on "the right things"?
This is not my own idea, and I don't remember where I heard it first, but it had a great effect on me: Thinking about how much good I can do with my own work and how much good can be done with the money I earn, I have to realise that my money can do more than I can. While I would prefer to do both - work a job that matters and give money to others to do good stuff, I am not currently in the position to do so. I find it hard enough to avoid doing things I am not comfortable doing, working for industries I would rather not support. But what I can do is live a frugal life and give away the money I don't need to help others do better things. Again, not because I don't want to get my hands dirty or anything, but because other people or organisations are better suited to doing this stuff.

I wish I could do both: work on the things I believe to be the right ones, and support others to do the same at the same time. But then again, what I believe to be the right things might turn out to be completely wrong. I think it is important to keep an open mind on what the right things are, and change directions in the face of new evidence.

If it happened, please tell the story of your decisions regarding your work because of your values and social responsibility.
I don't remember any such decisions in my short life as a developer. I imagine that they would include security or privacy issues, or issues of inclusion/exclusion of certain groups. Before becoming a developer, I worked at a staffing firm for a very short time. After about a month I figured out how they treated their staff and quit immediately. I did not want to be associated in any way with such business practices. In hindsight I regret not having done more for the staff.

How do you think about selecting industry, customer and project based on your values?
An important choice for me was to work with a company that embraces Open Source Software instead of working for a closed source company. However, the software we produce is not Open Source, which I deeply regret. Choosing the customers I work with directly is unfortunately out of reach at the moment. This is something I aspire to.

Do you have problems with any industries? Why? What about Porn industry or weapon manufacturing?
I don't think porn is bad per se, as long as it is consenting adults working in it. (Of course, more could be said about the gender issues in most porn, but this is not the place and time for that.) As for the industries I don't want to work for: I don't have a list ready. But it is very obvious for me that the weapons and defence industry definitely have place high on that list. I would put animal factories and suppliers on that list too. As a teen I had to work as a farm hand for a few weeks, and was assigned to a small scale chicken farm. Every morning I had to walk through the big hall with all the chicks and collect the ones that had choked over night. Not a good memory.

Obviously, companies that use child labour are out of question as well. I also see combustion engines as a problem for climate change - although there are bigger problems, and worse polluters. Many car companies are looking into ways of making individual transport more sustainable making it a less clear-cut question. On the other hand, I would not want to work for companies in the petrochemical sector. Banks and insurance companies probably get a space on that list as well. And the pseudo-pharma industry that produces and sells pseudo-medicine. I mean those who sell sugar beads or other quackery and convince people they are as good as - or even better than - proper medicine. Any company, basically, that is concerned more with benefits for the few, instead of adding value for the many. Which is, unfortunately, quite common practice.

Did you ever reject a customer based on your values?
As I mentioned in an earlier question, I quit a job I actually needed because of fraudulent behaviour on their side.

On the other hand, what would be projects that you would love to work on?
I would love to work for social and educational projects. I see education as the most important tool to build a better world. Education on all levels, and for all social groups, everywhere. I am convinced that education is the only way to solve the problems we have today. (This is one of the reasons why I don't want to give up my small teaching gig.)

Some branches of research are important too. No future development without research. Not related to any specific project or customer, I find the use, propagation, and development of Open Source Software to be of great importance. Apart from the often mentioned four freedoms, I see it as a means to more equality. I have used and propagated Open Source for a long time, and want to start contributing to it as my next goal.

Thank you Rea for taking the time to answer my questions. (I saw the time of your last email was 1:18 am.)
Thank you, Peter, for the opportunity to think about these topics in a structured way! If anyone has any suggestions, please let me know.

Interview Dirk Rombauts

Next in line is Dirk Rombauts, a fellow software developer from Vienna, whom I met at the Vienna BDD Meetup.

Dirk, please tell us a bit about yourself.

I decided to become a software developer around the age of 16. I was into natural sciences, math, astronomy and computers at the time, and a lot of my older friends were studying to become software developers. I used to play with Lego all the time as a kid, and software development is a lot like building Lego things: you have building blocks - frameworks and libraries - and if you put them together in meaningful ways, you can create quite cool things.

My university studies did a good job of giving me a basic understanding of software development and of the limitations of what a computer can do. They also pushed me in the direction of curly braces, since our main projects were done in C++. I did a bit of work in Java and C++ before jumping on the C#/.NET bandwagon in 2003, and I've enjoyed the ride ever since.

The thing I am most proud of is the work I've done on Pickles, the open source living documentation generator. A living documentation is a documentation that is always up-to-date with the newest insights. Wikipedia is a living encyclopaedia, but unlike Wikipedia, with living documentation you do not need human intervention: assuming your specification is written in the Given/When/Then style of Cucumber or SpecFlow, Pickles will contain those (frankly quite boring-looking) specification files and turn them into a much better-looking web app. That means that non-technical people can read the specification files without needing a programming environment - or in other words: it becomes easier for non-technical people to participate in the discussions. Pickles has emerged as the leading living documentation generator, and receives regular code contributions.

You are vegetarian and mentioned ethics of work several times during our conversations. Why does that matter to you?

I eat vegetarian for two reasons: I consider the way animals are treated in the food industry to be unethical (there is that word again). I do not object to people raising animals, killing them in a quick and painless way and eating them - while it is done in a respectful way. Stuffing stalls to overflowing with animals, treating them like inanimate objects, hauling them hundreds of kilometres to a place reeking of fear and death to slaughter them - that is a far cry from treating animals with the respect that every living creature deserves. The other reason is that I believe - based on the results of scientific studies I've seen - that by eating vegetarian, I significantly reduce my risk of cancer or cardiovascular diseases. I do not try to convince people of my views: everybody should decide for themselves, I detest proselytising, and the sad truth is that for every scientific study that supports my view there is another study that says that another diet is much healthier. So it comes down to what you choose to believe.

What other topics are you concerned about?

As with the animals, I believe we should treat other people and the environment with respect. Cheating people is not respectful. Doing work that harms people is not respectful. Doing work that damages the environment is not respectful. Therefore, work ethics are important to me. I believe women and men are of equal value and should be granted the same rights, the same opportunities and the same compensations for the same job. That makes me a feminist, and I am proud of that.

We live in a world where everybody with an Internet connection can watch hours of pornography, and yet it's rare to see a positive attitude towards sexuality. This is very obvious in the way society treats sex workers: they perform a very important service and ought to receive gratitude and respect for that - instead they are treated like dirt, the name of their profession is an insult, and in some regions they are indeed even prosecuted (but not their customers). I hope it goes without saying that I do not condone trafficking.

There is a chasm between the rich and the poor, and the chasm grows wider all the time. I begrudge no-one the spoils of their work. But I do not get that a manager should earn over 10 times more than regular workers. And I do not think it is right for "the rich" (be they people or companies) to exploit others for the sake of profit maximisation. I live a life that is affluent compared to many other places in the world, and I too have the desire to earn a bit more, but at some point enough is enough. At least in my opinion - many people with big salaries seem to think otherwise.

And then there is this fixation on working a lot. In the 1950s, when automated assembly and production became a thing, people dreamed of working only a few hours a day and devoting the rest of their time to family, friends, hobbies, art, ... In one of his short stories, renowned science fiction writer Isaac Asimov has one of the characters reminisce about the bad old days of a demanding four hour work week. Over half of a century later we are still working eight hours a day, and there is more and more talk about increasing that to 10 or even 12 hours a day. Something went wrong along the way.

What do you consider the biggest challenges for humanity?

I think the biggest challenge for humanity is the ingrained "us versus them" attitude of people. People tend to divide the world in two categories: us and the others. They will look after the interests of the "us" group, and ignore (or even sabotage) the interests of the others. Back in the days of hunter-gatherer societies this made sense: in order to survive, a human needs a tribe. So survival of the human becomes linked to survival of the tribe. A hunter-gatherer society usually operated in a scarcity environment, so it was important to make sure that the scarce resources were obtained by the "us" tribe and not by the other tribes. The "us versus them" mentality was a significant survival trait.

Ever since the development of agriculture and civilization, there have been plenty of resources and it is no longer necessary to divide the world in those two categories. The "us versus them" way of thinking is so deeply ingrained in our genes that it is very hard to overcome. We see it in rivalries between supporters of football clubs, in nationalism, in racism, in ethnic cleansing, ... Much of organised religion falls into that category as well, compounded by the fact that you now have a higher authority that tells you that it is right and proper that you look after people of your of tribe and creed, while being content to let the others rot in hell or even helping them along on the way.

If humanity is to evolve beyond its current state, we will need to overcome to "us versus them" way of thinking. If we do not, we will be fated to go through endless cycles of war and peace. As population sizes grow, those conflicts grow in scale and destructiveness too.

What do you do to engage these topics? For example, did you take part in public protests, donate money to NGOs or sign petitions?

To be honest, I am not convinced public protests do much good. They gather a bit of attention, but next week the focus of the media will turn somewhere else and the protest and its causes will be forgotten. I think that continuously doing small things has a bigger impact. If over time enough people do small things continuously, that will achieve a more lasting effect than a public protest.

I eat vegetarian so the meat industry doesn't receive financial incentives from me. I separate my trash in recyclable categories. I do not own a car - while I do use car-sharing from time to time, the first option I evaluate for getting from A to B is always public transport. I sign the occasional petition, but like public protests, I do not expect much to come from that. I donate money WWF (World Wide Fund for Nature), an NGO that protect animal diversity.

While I could quit my jobs and do charity work, I rather keep doing what I can do best and earn my salary as usual, just working on "the right things". Do you think that is possible?

It is not easy. Our society is geared toward earning money, spending that money in exchange for enjoyable things, and not asking too many questions about where those things came from. Working as software developer or IT administrator for an organisation like Caritas might be a worthwhile thing, but the pay would be such that it would be hard to make ends meet. My current strategy is to work part-time, earning enough money to pay the bills and also having time left to enjoy life.

During your professional career, did you ever have to take difficult decisions because of your values and social responsibility?

I haven't encountered any moral dilemma's in my work so far, except perhaps the target industry of my former employer. I hope that should I be asked to do something that I consider morally wrong - like tampering with emission control measures - I will have the courage to say no and to go looking for another job.

How do you think about selecting industry, customer and project based on your values and social responsibility?

I think it is important to follow your conscience when selecting a job. If you do not, and you end up working in a field that runs counter to your values, you will suffer. You may not notice on a conscious level, but it does have repercussions. Recent studies suggest that if your own picture of reality is at odds with reality itself, your body will release large quantities of cortisol (the stress hormone). Increased levels of cortisol are linked to increased illnesses, increased anxiety and unhappiness. If the reality is that you are working in some job, but your values (your picture of how reality should be) tell you that you should not work there, then you are setting yourself up for a cortisol trip with all the problems thereof.

Let us be more specific: Would you work for an animal factory? Would you work for a company producing equipment for an animal factory? Would you work for a sweat shop exploiting kids in Asia? Would you work for a company producing equipment for such a shop? Do you have problems with any industries?

I do not want to work for most of the companies you describe: exploiting animals or people is a no-go for me. Being accessory to the exploitation by working for a company producing equipment for an animal factory wouldn't sit right with me either. Even designing a website for such a company would make me uncomfortable. That said, I will do that kind of work if that's the only alternative. It may sound callous, but I would rather work for the company with the sweatshop than for the animal factory: there are far more human beings than animals, so I feel we need to devote more care to the well-being of animals.

I would probably be alright with working in the porn industry: there is nothing wrong with porn in and of itself, although there sadly is much more stereotypical and demeaning porn than there is sex-positive porn. As for the military: I could imagine myself working on a defensive system, but not so much on an offensive system. Still, if the choice is between the military and an animal factory, I will work for the military (unless the project involves animals like the Navy Marine Mammal Program in the United States of America).

I do not have a problem working in the gambling industry. I have done it before, and have recently accepted an offer to do so again. I consider it the responsibility of every single person to decide if they want to risk their money in gambling. The odds of winning are low, but you will at most lose your own money if you bet wrongly. When a bank bets on the wrong horse, they can lose the money of all their customers.

Did you ever reject a customer based on your values?

My previous employer is active in the financial industry. At first I did not mind but over time I began to realise that the work I was doing benefits only the rich: it helped the rich getting richer. The other, far more numerous part of humanity did not benefit from my work. Additionally, the speculations of investments banks can have a massive negative impact on society, like the financial crisis in 2008.

When I went looking for a new job after five years in the financial industry, I looked in different industries. I was offered several positions in the financial industry, but I declined those immediately.

On the other hand, what would be industries or companies that you would love to work on?

I would love to work for an animal-related NGO like WWF. I believe that when we learn to treat animals and the environment better, we will also learn to treat other humans better. I would also love to work for a space agency or company. I believe that more knowledge is the key to a better world. And we need space travel: if humanity somehow manages to survive the next couple of hundred million years, we will need to go in search of a new home among the stars when the Sun increases in luminosity and renders Earth uninhabitable.

Thank you Dirk!

You are welcome!

Interview Finn Lorbeer

Last year I ran a workshop at Quest for Quality, a young Devops and testing conference in Ljubljana. On of the speakers was Finn Lorbeer. During the conference dinner he helped me with suggestions for vegetarian food choices - the dinner was meat heavy unfortunately - which I appreciated a lot. I am not strictly vegetarian but since I talked to Carlos, I have reduced my meat consumption considerably. Now let's hear his views on meaningful work.

Finn, please take a few sentences to introduce yourself.
I am Finn and I work for a consultancy called ThoughtWorks. I am specialised in all aspects of building a high quality product. I analyse software as much as the team composition, the established processes, the business and data around it. With this heuristic approach I consult the ThoughtWorks teams themselves.

Finn, I know that you are vegetarian and concerned with preserving the environment. Why does that matter to you?
I am a sensible human being. Plus - and this is probably the differentiation - I do not close my eyes to what is going on in the world. I became vegetarian after thinking about where the meat that I was consuming (daily!) really came from. I ignored what marketing told me, and tried to be smarter than blindly believing what I saw in the supermarket. If you are really aware of how much suffering you inflict for you convenience, how would that not change your behaviour? It changed mine.

Years later, investigating more on the topic, I found out that it’s not only about meat. The entire animal farming industry is the root cause for a huge part of our CO² emissions. Nothing in my private life has a bigger impact on the world's climate than having a vegan diet. I have no idea how people can get up in the morning being aware that with most of what they do over the day destroys the chemical composition of the atmosphere of our planet. So I guess they are not aware. And this is the main difference. It matters to all people, not just me.

What do you actually do regarding these things?
We are right now changing the chemical composition of our atmosphere and destroy our planet we live on. We are very close to a tipping point where the climate may change very fast. We have to stop this madness right now. And there is something everyone can do easily.

The CO²-Footprint of the beef of one burger is about equal to driving 100km by car. I neither eat meat nor drive a car. I organise film screenings about climate justice topics and I am in exchange with people from Ecuador, the US, Australia, China, India and more countries to think how we cannot only impact our private lives, but also our work environment.

What do you consider the biggest challenge (for humanity) of our times?
Again climate change. The poorest areas of the world already suffer the most. Syria experiences the driest times in history. Central Africa, too. They are already hotspots of wars and uprisings today. And we really wonder why so many refugees come from exactly those areas? There are fights between citizens and police in Mexico, because the people have no more access to fresh water. The arctic is melting at an incredible speed. While I love sailing, I would not enjoy sailing over the north pole in a couple of years.

What could we do to engage in these topics? For example, did you take part in public protests, donate money to NGOs or sign petitions?
I think the best thing one can always do is to lead by example. It is difficult to just sent some money somewhere. There are programs where you can donate money based on the miles you flew by plane to counterbalance your CO² footprint. But studies showed that the people fly more when they use such services. They do not have a bad conscious any more, they pay to be free, and fly more.

I would like to see more impact on these important topics of my regular work by just working on "the right things". Do you think that is possible in general?
No. If everyone does this our economy and lifestyle breaks down. This is not sustainable. Many people need to work so that we have the money that some can do "the right things". This is the basic idea of any social system. So the setting is there, but the balance is wrong: e.g. broker (who do not create value in the economy) earn up to 100 times more than people in child care. IT people earn 10 times more than activists working for NGOs. We have to balance that better than we did before. But it’s unreasonable to think that we will all just work for social justice issues.

There are many decisions we take before and during a project. Which choices do you think are relevant? (The recent VW scandal is an example. Developers could have chosen not to commit fraud.)
I think that this sounds easier than it really is. Imagine that you are together with 200 developers at VW. And all 200 seem OK with tweaking the software a bit. The reasoning - everyone else does it, too - seems just OK and so you go along. What is the alternative? Stand up against 200 colleagues? It is rare to find so very, very courageous people. If this discussion is going on it’s too late already. There is little you can influence as an individual in a large group. The least you can do is to refuse to do it. Someone else will do it, but at least it was not you.

I believe that we all as individuals should work on a culture where such a discussion does not even start. If 200 people would not even consider an idea to manipulate their software, then no one dare to ask. If we build software "properly", we build it secure and with high quality. Both characteristics oppose fraud. I think here a positive attitude towards the (real) product you are building goes hand-in-hand with a guidance to what is right. One should never blindly code, like a code monkey.

How do you think about selecting industry, customer and project based on your values and social responsibility?
This is really difficult! There is something "bad" to find about almost any company. Twitter and Facebook create the little interests-spheres. Amazon tries to make us buy more than we want (and more than some people can actually afford). Uber replaces long-lived taxi companies. Amnesty International does only oppose small third world countries. But what do they do about big companies that are even worse than some small nations? Did Amnesty ever raise issues about Google and their mass-surveillance? No.

Do you have problems with any industries? Why? What about Porn industry or weapon manufacturing?
So while I think there is not "the" company to work for there are definitely some not to work for: companies earning money in tobacco, oil, porn or weapon industry are not worth looking at. They do actually nothing to improve our world.

I think I can work in the finance sector or insurance. Usually, those clients pay well. And this money can then be used for a better course, like helping programs that are working on the social justice mission.

Did you ever reject a customer or an actual project, that would bring you money based on your values?
No. But I never had a client or project that was totally aligned with my values either. As I explained above: while there is no perfectly aligned company, I never join or reply to offers, that do not fit with my values.

On the other hand, what would be industries, customers and projects that you would love to work on?
I am lucky to work for a company that shares some of my values, especially about social and economic justice. ThoughtWorks just released an open source hospital system that was built together with doctors in India. It is now being rolled out in Pakistan and Bangladesh. There were some developers working on it, so my part was simply to ensure we have the money to do so, e.g. by joining "any" project in Germany.

If I could choose freely, I think I would either go into the automotive industry or renewable technologies. Why automotive? We are at the brink of electro mobility. But our old, rusty German companies move really slow in this direction. I would love to help them get up to speed and get rid of their 130 years old model of explosion-driven-vehicles. A society that is mostly vegetarian and bases on electro mobility is be something I would be proud to be a part of.

Thank you
Thank you, too!

Interview Franziska Sauerwein

My next "victim" for my series of interviews was Franziska "Franzi" Sauerwein. I first noticed Franzi volunteering information about developer ethics in the Software Craftsmanship Slack channel. As I kept meeting her at interesting conferences and unconferences around Europe, it was just a matter of time until she agreed to answer my interview questions. Franzi is very active on Twitter and posts to her Codurance blog from time to time. Let's see her views on work and values.

Hey, my name is Franziska Sauerwein and I'm a Software Craftswoman.
Puzzles have always amazed me and that's how I got interested in Computer Science. After completing my degree I learned that Software Development is much more about people than about sitting alone at a desk in a room and coding in isolation. I have worked as a software developer and consultant for three years in Germany before moving to London to join Codurance in the summer of 2015. My passions include Test Driven Development, Refactoring, XP techniques and high quality software development. I'm always trying to improve my skills and share knowledge. As an active member of the European Software Craftsmanship community I love to participate in unconferences and organise code retreats, hackathons, coding dojos as well as tech talks. I aim to use my skills and creativity to develop software that is reliable, easy to adapt and doing what it is supposed to do.

You said you like to discuss developer ethics. Why is that so?
As developers, we have a profound influence on our society and people's everyday lives. How we write software and what we write has an impact and with great power comes great responsibility. :)

What other topics are you concerned about?
I am a feminist, which means I believe in equal rights for all genders. I also believe in taking a critical look at my privileges as a white person with cis and class privilege. I try to inform myself on racism, ableism, hate on trans* and queer people as well as other forms of discrimination. I speak out when I witness discrimination and I try to raise awareness on these issues. I support other women, especially when they face discrimination in our industry. In my community work, I actively encourage women to take their space and men to give them their space. There are about a thousand little things that I do, from translating the Community Code of Conduct to German to recommending women to speak at conferences. I use my privileges and my extroverted personality to raise the voice of others.

What do you consider the biggest challenge of our times?
I consider the biggest challenge to show compassion towards and work with other humans in the face of a society that tells us to worry about our own safety and throw others under the bus (or out of our country).

Most people I meet are concerned about meat mass production or pollution. What could we do to engage in the topics? For example, did you take part in public protests, donate money to NGOs or sign petitions?
These are topics I used to be much more interested in a couple of years ago, when I did all the actions mentioned above. Nowadays, my passion and energy are put into issues that are closer to me and the people I care about and where I feel I can make a difference. That being said, I try to live a sustainable life as much as possible (using public transport, avoiding waste, not eating meat) but I do not consider that to be out of the ordinary. I also support people who need financial aid by donating and lending money. However, I believe financial inequality can ultimately only be solved on a political level.

Do you think it is possible to work on "the right things" which are aligned with your values in general?
It definitely is. In fact, I believe that I can be a feminist while I am working. We need people on all levels, people that dedicate their life's work and people who are not primarily activists. And it is important to keep your activism to a level where it is sustainable, taking care of your needs as not to burn out. One can easily get overwhelmed with the number of problems out there. Allowing yourself some slack and amplifying positive changes makes it easier to deal with things.

Especially when you are in a discriminated group, there is a lot of expectation to fight and work against that. However, it should not only be your responsibility, but the responsibility of society as a whole, especially the privileged members. And it can be much harder and more frustrating to speak out and defend your position when you are affected by bad behaviour yourself.

Regarding the choice of working on the right thing: There are already many organisations out there that make conscious choices of what to work on. If you are in a position to choose, go for what you believe in. I believe in raising the bar of software development and building a community of professionals, that's why I chose to work for Codurance.

There are many decisions we take before and during a project. Which choices do you think are relevant?
I think the most likely choices we face as developers are whether to implement dark patterns, impede on people's right to their privacy, slack on security or engage in legal grey areas that ultimately cause harm. Choosing who we work with and who's voice we amplify also makes a difference. Examples like the Apple Watch not working on dark skin or health applications without period trackers show that lack of diversity in the people producing the software has a direct impact on the user. Increasing diversity in the workplace is therefore an important part of making software better for all humans. In my opinion, the largest cause of the lack of diversity in software development is due to everyday harassment, micro aggressions and systematic subtle disadvantages.

How do you think about selecting industry, customer and project based on your values?
I think everyone should choose the industry that interests them most and do what they can to make it better. If you are able to choose customer and project, choose according to whether you can leave them a better place. For example, through increasing transparency and user friendliness or providing users with protection against online harassment. You can also choose to increase profits for someone who invests some of that profit into a cause you believe in.

Do you have problems with any industries?
I do not think that it is that easy to steer clear of problematic companies, since it's not transparent who profits from what. All industries have some problematic part, mostly through exploiting people or benefiting from countries screwing each other over. I do not want to support the weapon's industry, as it profits from wars and conflicts where people get hurt.

Did you ever reject a customer or an actual project, based on your values?
I was not in that position yet.

On the other hand, what would be projects that you would love to work on?
I would like to work on projects that increase diversity and fight discrimination.

Thank you Franziska for sharing your views.

Interview Christian Haas

Christian Haas commented one of my past posts, so it was natural to ask him for an interview as well. If you want to know more about Christian, read his blog or find him on Twitter.

Christian, you are a software developer?
I am a software developer "since always". I felt the call to create software already during my undergraduate years. Since a few years I understand what it means to be really professional. I was blind for a very long time. When I changed project and worked with another team, which applied more practises and patterns, I saw what is possible.

What do you consider your biggest success?
I founded the Coding Dojo Vienna. I started it because there was none and I wanted to have a Coding Dojo. In the beginning we just met in one of our meeting rooms after work. We practised a lot. Later a few people from other companies joined. And now it is self-sustained and will survive on its own. I am very proud of it.

You commented one of my blog posts about diversity. Why does that matter to you?
My attention to diversity was started by Feminist Frequency. The podcasts showed me that there is so much more to feminism than I thought and that I had made mistakes. I was part of most men who do not want to do any harm but do not know better. I excluded or hurt people without knowing and did not want to do that. Like in the Coding Dojo I wanted to improve myself in this area of life as well.

Today feminism is very important to me. With knowing more about the topic I felt comfortable to discuss it with my friends. Now I want to inform others that are similar to me. In the beginning I tried to discuss with random people on the Internet - usually ending in flame wars - but it took too much time. I stopped because I am unable to change random people, nor do I want to do this. I focus on my direct surroundings and try to have impact there.

Diversity on itself is a huge area. I focus on feminism because I do not know much about other areas like racism (*ism) to engage actively. Still, I am happy about others pursuing social justice and - if there is a role model in my vicinity - I am willing to learn more.

What other topics are you concerned about?
There are many things worth complaining nowadays. I leave these fights to the people who know the details. I focus at the things I know enough about to engage actively myself. While I do not have the time and energy to engage actively all the things, I appreciate and support other people engaging these topics. Personal I care for saving the environment and recycling. Also I rather eat vegetables than meat without being a strict vegetarian.

I would like to see more impact on these important topics by my regular work. Do you think that is possible?
1. I see three options to have impact with your work. First you could work directly for a greater goal. For example when I create a web platform for feminism I surely have some impact by influencing society while not fighting at the fore-front.

2. The next, smaller option is more localised. While I do not believe I can make a change when working for a bank, I might make a difference when working on the public user interface of the banking application by making it #genderUX, e.g. by creating gender-inclusive forms. By influencing a single product I still can make people's live better.

3. Finally I can work in my team to raise awareness which might result for not hiring a man next time. This is not related to my job as developer and relies on social interaction. I can always try to influence the people around me.

Please tell a story of something you did because of your values and social responsibility. What was the problem? How did you react?
I have never been hesitant to speak up at my work places, and adding feminist views to my comments fits in naturally. My attitude was never a problem and I am confident that I would find another job if it would not work out. Whenever I see or hear something which I do not like, I speak up while I avoid becoming a hard-liner. My current project does not have any gender related impact so I am working according item three of my list above. As a team member I do have the power to affect hiring decisions.

How do you think about selecting industry, customer and project based on your values and social responsibility?
Even when given the opportunity, I do not want to work for dedicated feminist services, e.g. feminist online magazines, because they do not need my skill in raising internal awareness. Also I do not want to work for companies which are known to be anti-feminist. I do not want to be the leader of a movement, a figurehead. I feel comfortable influencing people around me. Otherwise I do not have any preferences on the selection.

Do you have problems with any industries?
I relate to the “hierarchy of needs”. When I have no other choice I would work for any company. But I am lucky that I consider myself at a higher level of the hierarchy. Given my current position, I would not work for stalking or porn or any project that conflicts my values. Other than that it is difficult for me to think about potential situations without concrete facts.

Did you ever reject a customer or project based on your values?
I never had such a situation where my work conflicted with my values.

On the other hand, what would be companies and projects that you would love to work on?
As I do not engage in feminism at the fore-front I do not look for industries or companies where I can amplify my impact.

Thank you Christian for sharing your views.

Interview Christoph Neuroth

C089 - or Christoph Neuroth - was the Code of Conduct "officer" at SoCraTes Belgium. Obviously I asked him to answer my questions. Here is what he wrote. If you want to know more about Chris, read his blog or find him on Twitter.

Christoph, how did you become a software professional?
It started when I found a tutorial on programming in BASIC as a kid. I really liked video games and writing stories, so I wrote text adventure games with that. I was hooked and started saving my money to buy books on programming and educating myself. At the same time I had tons of problems at school. I was later diagnosed with ADHD but this was way before that became a well-known "condition", so they just tried to get rid of me and at least one teacher told me I would never achieve anything. But I couldn't care less: I sat through it, went home, told my parents there was no homework and wrote code. I cannot really recall wanting any other job since then. I cheated my way through school to get some degree that allowed me to go to university with the least effort possible and went on to study computer science, which I believed was the road to becoming a professional software developer. That was a bit naive though and I did not learn a lot of useful things about software development there and continued to self-educate instead. It was a great time for personal development though. I also worked part-time programming jobs to get more experience and after graduating went on to become a full-time developer. The really important thing however was that by chance I got to meet people from the craftsmanship community. I had read books like Clean Code and understood about the importance of testing already, but learning from all these people and becoming an aspiring craftsworker myself was so important.

My most recent big success was going independent last year. I currently work as a developer in teams and lead by example when it comes to better ways to build software, run training sessions on testing and design and advise technical management on what they can do to help their developers get better. Going freelance allowed me to level up my career in many ways that were not possible in a traditional employer/employee model. But more important to me are the small, everyday successes: When a developer tells me she learned something useful from me or that I helped her team overcome a problem. That is what gives me the energy to pursue excellence and keep going.

And you already know I also organise SoCraTes Conference, an un-conference for all people that are passionate about well-crafted code.

I know that you are vegetarian and noticed you sharing content about diversity and harassment. Why does that matter to you?
Well, vegetarianism (or my as of now part-time veganism) is the much smaller thing for me really. After moving out of my parents place I had to care for my own food, so I had a reason to think about what I eat. I gradually and unconsciously removed meat from my diet. At some point I noticed "oh, I am a vegetarian", and went on with my life. It was later that I began to think more about the ethics behind that and while that is interesting, I think it is much more pressing to talk about diversity and harassment in our industry. Many people that are actually affected by this have written about this question and I encourage everyone to listen to them, but as you specifically asked why it matters to me, here goes:

Being a software developer is a great job. It has given me the opportunity to do something I enjoy for work, get a very good salary plus freedoms people in other professions can only dream of on top (right now I am working from the beach in Tunisia to escape the cold German winter). But many people with more talent than I have need to work much harder to enter this profession, and when they make it, they end up in a hostile work environment. Here's the problem with this industry: Way too many of us are able bodied, cis, straight, white men in their twenties or thirties - just like I am - and the moment you do not fit in, you are likely to be discriminated and harassed in this industry.

This initially is not obvious because it is so prevalent in the whole society, and sold to us as normal. But once you realise it, it cannot be unseen: When I recently recommended a junior developer to check out some videos by Sandi Metz and ended the sentence with "she taught me a lot", he uttered a "she?" that sounded not just surprised, but rather disdainful. I have seen whole offices with a culture where using "gay" as a synonym for "bad" did not even make people raise an eyebrow. I have seen rape jokes posted on the wall of a 100% male development teams' office. All those things and much more, every day. I do not want to work like this, and no one should have to.

Now most people are not that bad - they do not want this, and I am sure they often feel uncomfortable because of this. But they may be afraid to speak up, so it is important that those who have really nothing to lose do. So, because I enjoy the privilege of being in this industry, not having to fear and having my voice heard, it is my responsibility to say something. That is why it matters to me. And we will all benefit from this: We will get to work with many new talented people that we excluded before and can together raise the bar of professional software development, which is what craftsmanship is all about. Sure, we may lose some too: those that show toxic behaviour and do not want to change - but are we really going to miss them? I do not think so.

What other topics are you concerned about and what do you do regarding them?
I am concerned about many things really, but of course I cannot act on all of them. The other really big issue that has been interesting to me the last years has been how we treat refugees that come to Germany. As to what I actually do, I do not want to go into details but rather look at that question from a different angle, one that is related to craftsmanship too: Probably not enough.

I am often concerned about not doing more work like that; and instead go to a client’s office where I make money building things that do not really improve society. And in our community, we put a lot of focus on lifelong learning, and then I do extra work like organising SoCraTes. I often wonder if my priorities are right. For my career, definitely; but will I be satisfied with this when I look back on my life one day? I am not so sure about that.

Outside your personal topics discussed till now, what do you consider the biggest challenges of our times?
Finding a way to thrive on another planet before we completely ruined this one.

When I talk to people, many express concern about meat mass production or pollution, but almost nobody really acts on it. What could we do to engage in the topics? For example, did you take part in public protests, donate money to NGOs or sign petitions?
I did all of that, at different times and for different things, yes. All of these things can be helpful, it is just a matter of choosing the right tool for the right problem. Regarding things like factory farming and pollution, I think the most effective protest happens through consumption, or rather the lack thereof: People do not mass produce animals because it is such a fun thing to do, they do it because it is a profitable business. So in the system we live in that is the way to end factory farming: Take away the profits.

However, that is fixing a symptom, not the root cause: Greedy people will exploit something or someone to make a bigger profit. When it is no longer factory farming, dirty engines or selling tanks to Saudi-Arabia, they will find something different. I do not really have a solution to that. While we have made progress in technology, when it comes to being respectful to each other and nature, we haven't really made that much progress. It is just very frustrating really.

I would like to see more impact on these important topics of my regular work. I would like to keep doing what I can do best and earn my salary as usual, just working on "the right things". Do you think that is possible in general?
Do we really need that "usual" salary though? Many of us could probably live on so much less! Last year, I moved out of my big flat, sold or gave away nearly all the stuff I had and since then I have lived a much less cluttered and happier life than before. Today, I could easily work for less money or just work less. But I remember the time when a person I trusted stole a good amount of money from me, I lived with friends for a few months and then spent years paying back loans. That is the way capitalism takes us as hostages: Every time I get to decide "do I want to take that contract, or spend three months doing voluntary work for refugees instead", this situation will be in the back of my head.

The other thing, and I guess that is true for you as well, is that I actually enjoy what I do for a living. Finding a way to contribute more to society with the skills I have would be wonderful. I think it would very well be possible, but right now I feel it is very hard to find. I cannot really think of software projects that have positive social impact and are backed by organisations that can pay market rate for their development.

There are many decisions we take before and during a project. Which choices do you think are relevant?
The Volkswagen scandal is an extreme example. While I have no idea if developers can be hold accountable for the fraud here from a legal point of view, it is very clear to me from a moral standpoint: It was their responsibility to refuse this work and blow the whistle. This is not something I would be a part of. But there are many small things everyone of us can do every day to improve things. Lena Reinhard recently spoke on that in her Talk About Everything that goes into more detail than Martin Fowler did in the talk Not Just Code Monkeys. She says it so much better than I could, so I will leave the stage to her: Talk About Everything.

How do you think about selecting industry, customer and project based on your values and social responsibility?
That has changed a lot for me. I chose my first job based on technology and so I ended in eCommerce by chance. Now that is an industry I am not very passionate about. Useful as it is, society has bigger problems to solve than improving the convenience of buying stuff. But at least it does not seem to be bad in itself.

As I can get to chose companies more frequently as a freelancer than as a permanent employee, this is now much more relevant to me. I will certainly not only base that decision on the money I can make. As I said before I would really love to work for a company that builds a product that actually has positive social impact, though I am not sure what that would be really. And after what I said about harassment before, it won't surprise you that I would prefer to work for a company where everyone cares about those things and is committed to build better work environments. I would probably even stay if I found a company that does both. But industry-wise? I am not sure, I cannot see any industry that is just "good". That is not how industries work I guess.

Do you have problems with any industries? What about the meat industry or weapon manufacturing?
I also do not think there are many industries that are inherently evil, so it would mostly be a case-by-case decision. Having a bank account is pretty useful compared to carrying around all your money, yet I would probably decline most banking-related projects - because I believe they are not about solving people's problems, but only about making rich folks richer.

The weapons industry would surely be a no-go. A bit more surprising may be advertising: I view the advertising industry as somewhere between completely useless and outright evil. It is a whole industry that creates absolutely zero value for society. And it is not even that advertising is a mirror of a fucked up society with all it is problems - sexist advertisement only exists because there is a sexist society that responds to it. Capitalist consumerism only works if people stay unhappy, and advertisement is the primary weapon to create that unhappiness. You may think "weapon" is a strong word to use for that. Ironically, in Germany there is a campaign by the ad industry for itself (meta ads!) that says exactly that: "outdoor advertising: hits everyone". You hit people with your hands, weapons - or billboards. It is a very subtle war against freedom, and there is no opt-out of advertising. Which leads back to that thing I said before about being a hostage of capitalism: Ads are used to sell people stuff they do not need, which forces them to keep working their jobs even if they have ethical or moral issues with what they do for a living.

This brings me to another problem I have with my fellow humans: Our imagination seems so incredibly limited. When I say "let's ban ads", people always react with that old "that is not possible". Yet the city of Sao Paolo did exactly that with outdoor advertising in 2006, and the world kept turning even there. Why not try more of that.

Did you ever reject a customer or an actual project, that would bring you money based on your values?
Until now, that never happened. I am certain I would reject offers based on that if I had good reason, but being able to just walk away is also just privilege I have.

But how about the other way around? Maybe many companies do not even want to have people with ethical standards around, because their whole culture and business model is based on the absence of that? We are having this interview because in my twitter stream I mix things about my profession with my private views and I proposed a few sessions on diversity at SoCraTes conferences. I do the same offline: When I work at a client, I speak up against the kind of discrimination I described before. I usually speak with offenders in private the first time and then do it in front of their peers if the person person continues this behaviour. I think that in any group where someone shows such behaviour, there are people who feel this is not right, but do not speak up. So far I have never received any backlash because of this, but if that ever happened and the group decides I am the problem, I am more than prepared to get out of there, quickly. If I did not do it, it would make me an offender. I am in a luxury position of being able to speak up without fearing for my personal safety. If I did not speak up, it would make me an accomplice. So maybe some people will not hire me because of all this. I think I can live with that. I will go somewhere else. If society one day is so fucked up that I cannot get a job based on that, I will rather be poor than complicit.

On the other hand, what would be industries, customers and projects that you consider having a positive impact on society?
Maybe I am being pessimistic or just cannot see it yet, but I do not see how creating a software will improve things really. If anything, nearly all software is dual-use. Martin Fowler used the example of the developer that wrote printer drivers and how that is useful when you are building a house. While that is certainly true, the same printer driver can also be used to print the verdict that sentences a person to be killed by a fascist regime. Building software is something I enjoy and that pays my rent, there are many things wrong in how we do it and we can improve on that - but I do not see a way to make it an inherently good thing. It will be as good or bad as the people who write and use it. I really hope I am wrong with that though and will find projects to work on that are fulfilling on that level too.

Thank you Chris
Thank you