home
One thing I would say (5.00 / 1) (#3)
by vicndabx on Thu Nov 16, 2017 at 11:22:14 AM EST
the photo doesn't show him grabbing, it shows him pretending to grab.

Not defending it.

The rehearsal accusation... (5.00 / 2) (#7)
by kdog on Thu Nov 16, 2017 at 11:38:23 AM EST
is far worse than the photo...I could possibly excuse the photo as simple poor juvenile taste, but not the "kiss rehearsal" if it went down as the accuser describes.

Parent
I can't tell if he's touching her or not in the (2.00 / 2) (#4)
by McBain on Thu Nov 16, 2017 at 11:31:33 AM EST
photo.  I don't know that anything he's been of accused of is a crime.  I do know that lots of people get strange and obscene things done to them when they are unconscious. Sometimes it's all in good fun, sometimes it's not and can end in tragedy, especially when photos get passed around.  

Parent
My roommate (5.00 / 1) (#35)
by MKS on Thu Nov 16, 2017 at 12:57:41 PM EST
when I first got out of school and I went to a bar one night...Woody's Warf and it was a quite a scene....Fire Code be damned.

One woman in her 20s was totally hammered....not unusual.  She was stumbling around among the crowd.

When me and my roommate got home, he mentioned the drunk woman.  He said he groped her chest in the bar.  He thought it was funny and said she was defenseless.

I said something to him about that technically being sexual assault and he stopped smiling.

He was otherwise a good guy and I really liked him.  Very popular and intelligent.  

The discrepancy always struck me.  

Parent

I noticed the same thing, vic, but I also (none / 0) (#17)
by Anne on Thu Nov 16, 2017 at 12:01:34 PM EST
realized that we have no idea what he did next, or just before, either.

That being noted, I also have to share that I worked with someone  - a superior - in an atmosphere of congenial joking with a fair amount of sexual innuendo and double entendres, but what I learned is that when it all reaches a point - and it does do that, invariably - where a line of some kind is crossed, you not only have to deal with the reality of that, but also with the dilemma of what to do, what to say, who to tell, how to resolve it AND keep your job, what happens if you don't do anything.  And wrestle with how much of it is your fault because you were not just seemingly okay with it up until then, but you were giving as good as you got.  Were you saying "this is okay with me?" and how do you explain what changed?

I realize that's kind of vague - it's just hard to describe.  I'm not talking about physical contact of any kind - just verbal jousting, if you will.

So I can easily imagine how, on the one hand, here's Franken working in this atmosphere of sexual innuendo to appeal to his particular audience, and Tweeden is fully going along with it and contributing to it, and then - boom - the line is crossed, and it all goes sideways.

But here's the thing: the moment, the instant, that she made it clear his actions were not okay, there should have been no further action of that kind, whether or not she was aware of it.  He may not have understood why, seemingly all of a sudden, she didn't want to play along with Franken's comedy scripts that seemed written to put her in a position of having to allow Franken to get physical with her, but in my mind, he stops the behavior and figures out the rest of it on his time, not hers.

As to the "groping" or whatever that was, would he think it okay if some man did that to his wife, or his daughter?  I kind of doubt it - so why would be think for one minute it was okay to do it with Tweeden.

Is it really that difficult for men to make sure their big head always prevails over the little one?

Parent

Agree with this 100% (none / 0) (#21)
by vicndabx on Thu Nov 16, 2017 at 12:16:32 PM EST
It similar to something I tell my kids when they play rough. Stop when someone say stop. If you're paying attention to what you're doing you'll know when things have crossed the line.  

Parent
Yes, it sure seems that way, unfortunately. (none / 0) (#52)
by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Nov 16, 2017 at 07:15:08 PM EST
Anne: "Is it really that difficult for men to make sure their big head always prevails over the little one?"

As long as we as men are allowed to write the rules, we're going to continue to get away with it. And as long as we're allowed to get away with it, we're going to continue to do it.

As an example, most employers require employees to agree to private arbitration and non-disclosure agreements as a condition of their employment. Who writes those agreements? Likely, men do.

But when complaints about boorish behavior of male bosses, co-workers, etc., are effectively confined to individual silos thanks to such non-disclosure mandates, no pattern of bad behavior is allowed to publicly emerge. And so the workplace is rendered conducive to such repetitive acts by the same men, and women remain vulnerable to them.

From my standpoint, I think the problem will only start to be mitigated once enough women attain for themselves sufficient positions of power and authority, so that they can effectively dictate a prohibition of such behavior and then enforce it from a position of actual strength. Deterrence is the best weapon in a woman's arsenal. If I'm going to behave as a sexist pig, then it's potentially going to cost me big time.

I'd also offer the observation that women need to finally band together in relative solidarity and present a united front in response to this sort of behavior. Because until then, it's going to be relatively easy for men to divide and conquer. Women have to stand up and support other women in these types of situations.

But I've noticed that more often than not, they simply aren't doing so. Just go on Facebook, Twitter, HuffPost or the comment sections of online news articles tonight, and note the number of women making catty remarks about Al Franken's accuser Leeann Teedren, in which they offer irrelevant opinions on her workplace behavior, her attire, and / or her physical appearance. They'll look at that picture with Franken looming over her while she's fast asleep, and yet still think and imply that it's somehow her fault.

I'm sorry, but I find that to be entirely counterproductive. Yes, Ms. Teedren wasn't assaulted per se, though some might differ about tha with regards to that sloppy kiss, but she most certainly didn't deserve to be public humiliated like that. That offensive photo just oozes sexism and male privilege, even if Franken never intended it that way.

And besides, even if she were working at the Happy Endings Massage Parlor on Sunset Blvd., Leeann Teedren still maintains the personal right of refusal, she still deserves the same basic respect due any other human being, and the word "no" should still mean exactly that -- no.

So, if women are going to reserve that right for themselves individually, then they ought to grant to other women the same right and courtesy, collective without condition and in solidarity with one another. Otherwise, well, to quote the late humanitarian Jane Addams, "The essence of immorality is the tendency to make an exception of myself." And such women will continue to enable and excuse men's bad behavior.

Aloha.

Parent

  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft