Genealogy Tip of the Day

Beginning tomorrow, 14 December, my new blog rolls live:

Genealogy Tip of the Day

http://genealogytipoftheday.blogspot.com/

More to come--check it out.

Brick Walls from A to Z

Brick Walls from A to Z

This article originally appeared in the Ancestry Daily News on 11 Jan 2006. It is copyrighted and requests for reprint/redistribution can be directed to me at mjnrootdig@gmail.com.

This week we discuss the alphabet looking for clues to ancestral brick walls. The
list is meant to get you thinking about your own genealogy problems.

A is for Alphabetize

Have you created an alphabetical list of all the names in your database
and all the locations your families lived? Typographical errors and
spelling variants can easily be seen using this approach. Sometimes
lists that are alphabetical (such as the occasional tax or census) can
hide significant clues.

B is for Biography

Creating an ancestor's biography might help you determine where there
are gaps in your research. Determining possible motivations for his
actions (based upon reasonable expectations) may provide you with new
areas to research.

C is for Chronology

Putting in chronological order all the events in your ancestor's life
and all the documents on which his name appears is an excellent way to
organize the information you have. This is a favorite analytical tool
of several Ancestry Daily News columnists.

D is for Deeds

A land transaction will not provide extended generations of your
ancestry, but it could help you connect a person to a location or show
that two people with the same last name engaged in a transaction.

E is for Extended Family

If you are only researching your direct line there is a good chance you
are overlooking records and information. Siblings, cousins, and in-laws
of your ancestor may give enough clues to extend your direct family
line into earlier generations.

F is for Finances

Did your ancestor's financial situation impact the records he left
behind? Typically the less money your ancestor had the fewer records he
created. Or did a financial crisis cause him to move quickly and leave
little evidence of where he settled?

G is for Guardianships

A guardianship record might have been created whenever a minor owned
property, usually through an inheritance. Even with a living parent, a
guardian could be appointed, particularly if the surviving parent was a
female during that time when women's legal rights were extremely
limited (read nonexistent).

H is for Hearing

Think of how your ancestor heard the questions he was being asked by
the records clerk. Think of how the census taker heard what your
ancestor said. How we hear affects how we answer or how we record an
answer.

I is for Incorrect

Is it possible that an "official" record contains incorrect
information? While most records are reasonably correct, there is always
the chance that a name, place, or date listed on a record is not quite
exact. Ask yourself how it would change your research if one "fact"
suddenly was not true?

J is for Job

What was your ancestor's likely occupation? Is there evidence of that
occupation in census or probate records? Would that occupation have
made it relatively easy for your ancestor to move from one place to
another? Or did technology make your ancestor's job obsolete before he
was ready for retirement?

K is for Kook

Was your ancestor just a little bit different from his neighbors? Did
he live life outside cultural norms for his area. If he did,
interpreting and understanding the records of his actions may be
difficult. Not all of our ancestors were straight-laced and like their
neighbors. That is what makes them interesting (and difficult to
trace).

L is for Lines

Do you know where all the lines are on the map of your ancestor's
neighborhood? Property lines, county lines, state lines, they all play
a role in your family history research. These lines change over time as
new territories are created, county lines are debated and finalized,
and as your ancestor buys and sells property. Getting your ancestor's
maps all "lined" up may help solve your problem.

M is for Money

Have you followed the money in an estate settlement to see how it is
disbursed? Clues as to relationships may abound. These records of the
accountings of how a deceased person's property is allocated to their
heirs may help you to pinpoint the exact relationships involved.

N is for Neighbors

Have you looked at your ancestor's neighbors? Were they acquaintances
from an earlier area of residence? Were they neighbors? Were they both?
Which neighbors appeared on documents with your ancestor?

O is for Outhouse

Most of us don't use them any more, but outhouses are mentioned to
remind us of how much life has changed in the past one hundred years.
Are you making an assumption about your ancestor's behavior based upon
life in the twenty-first century? If so, that may be your brick wall
right there.

P is for Patience

Many genealogical problems cannot be solved instantly, even with access
to every database known to man. Some families are difficult to research
and require exhaustive searches of all available records and a detailed
analysis of those materials. That takes time. Some of us have been
working on the same problem for years. It can be frustrating but
fulfilling when the answer finally arrives.

Q is for Questions

Post queries on message boards and mailing lists. Ask questions of
other genealogists at monthly meetings, seminars, conferences and
workshops. The answer to your question might not contain the name of
that elusive ancestor, but unasked questions can leave us floundering
for a very long time.

R is for Read

Read about research methods and sources in your problem area. Learning
about what materials are available and how other solved similar
problems may help you get over your own hump.

S is for Sneaky

Was your ancestor sneaking away to avoid the law, a wife, or an
extremely mad neighbor? If so, he may have intentionally left behind
little tracks. There were times when our ancestor did not want to be
found and consequently may have left behind few clues as to his origins.

T is for Think

Think about your conclusions. Do they make sense? Think about that
document you located? What caused it to be created? Think about where
your ancestor lived? Why was he there? Think outside the box; most of
our brick wall ancestors thought outside the box. That's what makes
them brick walls in the first place.

U is for Unimportant

That detail you think is unimportant could be crucial. That word whose
legal meaning you are not quite certain of could be the key to
understanding the entire document. Make certain that what you have
assumed is trivial is actually trivial.

V is for Verification

Have you verified all those assumptions you hold? Have you verified
what the typed transcription of a record actually says? Verifying by
viewing the original may reveal errors in the transcription or
additional information.

W is for Watch

Keep on the watch for new databases and finding aids as they are being
developed. Perhaps the solution to your brick wall just has not been
created yet.

X is for X-Amine

With the letter "x" we pay homage to all those clerks and census takers
who made the occasional spelling error (it should be "examine" instead
of "x-amine.") and also make an important genealogical point. Examine
closely all the material you have already located. Is there an
unrecognized clue lurking in your files?

Y is for Yawning

Are you getting tired of one specific family or ancestor? Perhaps it is
time to take a break and work on another family. Too much focus on one
problem can cause you to lose your perspective. The other tired is when
you are researching at four in the morning with little sleep. You are
not at your most productive then either and likely are going in circles
or making careless mistakes.

Z is for Zipping

Are you zipping through your research, trying to complete it as quickly
as possible as if it were a timed test in school? Slow down, take your
time and make certain you aren't being too hasty in your research and
in your conclusions.

The "tricks" to breaking brick walls could go on and on. In general though,
the family historian is well served if he or she "reads and thinks in
an honest attempt to learn." That attitude will solve many problems,
not all of them family history related.

---

Sally-Sarah: What is the Difference?

Sally/Sarah, What's the Difference?

When two people have the same (or similar) names, or one person has multiple names, it can create big problems for genealogists. Records on individuals with the same name need to be "sorted" out into their separate identities, while individuals who used different names may have to be "merged" together to create one identity despite the varying names. The separating or merging is not always an easy process, and sometimes it is downright impossible. Incomplete or hasty research can aggravate the situation. Jumping to conclusions too early and holding on to them for too long may only add to the confusion.

To help with these frustrating occurrences, today's article centers on difficulties caused by individuals with similar names.

Making Assumptions: A Case Study

Philip Smith and Sarah Kile were living as husband and wife in Mercer County, Illinois in the 1870 and 1880 census. This family was the focus of our research. Sarah's children's marriage and death records had consistently listed her maiden name as Kile. But the consistency of secondary sources, while comforting, did not guarantee their accuracy. However, Sarah was listed as Archibald Kile's daughter in a late-1800s Mercer County, Illinois court case. The maiden name seemed fairly solid.

A search of the online Illinois Marriage Index located no marriage between Philip Smith and Sarah Kile. However, there was a marriage between a Sarah McIntosh and a Philip Smith on 3 May 1860. Another search of Kile marriages for females turned up an 1858 marriage for a Peter McLain and a Sally Kile. After finding these online records, I made the connection that Sarah and Sally were one in the same. After all, Sally was a well-known nickname for Sarah. Peter must have had died shortly after the couple's 1858 marriage, and Sarah must have married again. The nickname situation would explain the ladies' first name difference, and the original record was probably just misread so that McLain was mistakenly recorded as McIntosh. The scenario seemed clear, based on these assumptions! (Genealogy Guardian Angel advice: Look at the actual, original marriage records before making a conclusion like that.)

Next Stop: Census!

I located an entry for Peter McLain and Sarah L. McLain in a published 1860 Mercer County, Illinois census. But the published source did not include the actual date the census was taken, and I was still holding strong to my theory. However, listed in the household were an Elizabeth Kile and a William Kile. The 1860 census does not give relationships to heads of household. Sarah, the wife of Philip Smith, was the daughter of Archibald Kile. My theory was starting to unravel slightly, but perhaps the older Kiles were Sarah McLain's aunt and uncle. (Genealogy Guardian Advice: Be certain you aren't trying to make the records fit the theory instead of making the theory fit the records.)

I needed the original census to doublecheck the information and determine the date the census was taken. While I was waiting for that, a quick look at my copy of The Sources indicated that the 1860 census began on 1 June 1860. Philip Smith married Sarah McIntosh on 3 May 1860. This was starting to shoot holes in my theory.

On To 1870 . . .

There's Peter McLain STILL living with Sally! My theory is now bust, as Philip Smith and his Sarah had several children by this time. It is back to the drawing board.

Back to the marriages (more thoroughly this time . . .)

A search in the online Illinois State Marriage Index for brides under the surname "Kyle" located a marriage between a John McIntosh and a Sarah Kyle in September of 1852 in Mercer County, Illinois. This information led to a new working hypothesis, which was as follows:

Sarah Kile married John McIntosh in 1852. This marriage was terminated (either by John's death or by a judge). Sarah McIntosh married Philip Smith in 1860. Sally Kile, who married Peter McLain, was likely a relative of Sarah Kile, who is known to have married Philip Smith. Sarah Kile (McIntosh?) Smith and Sarah Kile McLain are likely related, possibly cousins. A look at Philip Smith and Sarah McIntosh's marriage license lists her as "Mrs. Sarah McIntosh" with a mark on the Mrs. (it's not clear if the mark is intending to strike out the Mrs. or not). This "Mrs." notation is not indicated in the online marriage index and is a considerable clue.

There's still plenty of work to be done: a COMPLETE analysis of census and other records, and an attempt to find out what happened to John McIntosh.

Lessons Learned

1) Nicknames should not always be an "excuse" to automatically "combine" two individuals.


2) Consider alternate spellings.


3) Do not jump to conclusions.


4) Research with the goal of finding out as much of the truth as you can—not with the intent of proving your initial hunch correct.


5) Continue to analyze all information as new information is located.

Comments on This Research "Technique"

1) Sally was frequently used as a nickname for Sarah.


2) McIntosh and McLain being considered the "same" without any evidence to back it up was a stretch (and a very long one at that).


3) At least the research continued and the researcher finally admitted that the initial theory was not correct.

Final Note

When I was just starting my research, I hired an individual to look for an ancestral marriage record. The individual found a man with the correct surname and a woman with the correct surname, but the date he found was not the same as the marriage date I had provided. I received a copy of this couple's license with the comment (paraphrased), "Nicknames were common in early days, and people weren't always certain anyway. Likely your date is off. Here's the copy."

It was only some years later, when I researched the records myself, that I discovered my ancestors' marriage record was there—with the date and the names I had given the researcher. My ancestor and his brother had married sisters, and I was originally sent the record for their siblings.

What Name do You use and Why?

Do you use your "real" name? Or do you use a diminutive based upon your first or middle name? Do you use a nickname?

In the notes section of your genealogy software indicate why you used the name you did. Future genealogists and relatives might like to know why you used it.

I have always used Michael, never "Mike." This is largely because my family always called me Michael and mother always said "if I had wanted him called 'Mike' I would have named him 'Mike.'". And I always thought Mike Neill sounded too short to be an actual name--at least to my ears--probably the result of being half German where every name needs to be somewhat long and have a lot of consonant sounds.

I started using my middle name because when I started my job, there was another guy in town named "Mike Neal" who was always getting arrested for one various thing or another. That was a way of distinguishing myself.

I know my great-grandmother Neill never used her "real" name of Francis--she used Fannie on everything, Francis appears ONLY on her birth record.

But jot this sort of thing down in your genealogy notes. Someone in a hundred years may want to know and you won't be around to tell them.

Make Certain You Read

I mentioned in an earlier post today that Ancestry.com just released Ontario, Canada Voter Lists, 1867-1900 on their website. I was really excited as I was hoping to find my elusive Clark Sargent in this database.

There was one reason I did not find him: he was dead by 1867. Oops.

Make certain your excitement doesn't cause you to waste time and energy. Hopefully you will find your living ancestors in this database. If this had been a list of Chicago voters, then I would have needed to look for the dead.

Pilgrim Ancestors on Ancestry's Blog

Juliana Smith has posted my article "Pilgrim Ancestors" on the Ancestry.com blog. There are links there to a variety of sites and a discussion of making a proof and establishing a case and working on a Pilgrim connection.

There is also some commentary on my own potential Pilgrim connection.

And if anyone knows anything about Clark Sargent who died in Winnebago County, Illinois, in 1847, let me know. If I can connect to him, then I have a likely Mayflower connection.

Getting more than just the Name

It is more than about reading just the one page or the one item.

The screen shot provides a little bit of information on my family Thomas Ramphey[sic]. The book has been digitized and is on Ancestry.com. Because of the typographical error, I did not find this one by searching on "Rampley." I already located the print book years ago and knew how the name was spelled. Turns out that John Demoss was a brother to Thomas Rampley's wife, Christianna.

This paragraph needs to be put in context. You can't read just the page where the entry appears. If I do that, I lose the fact that this page is talking about early settlers of Jackson Township, Coshocton County, Ohio. I also need to keep track of the author, title and publication date of the book.

History of Coshocton County, Ohio : its past and present, 1740-1881, by N. N. Hill, Jr., A. A. Graham and Company, Newark, Ohio, 1881, page 502. Available digitally at Ancestry.com.

Ancestry.com's Card Catalog

One frustration with some sites is the ability to search for databases that are in a specific locatilty. Libraries at least have a card catalog where one can search for locations, in particular counties, towns, etc. This makes finding specific materials easier. While global searches of websites are nice, there are times when I like to search a specific book instead of looking instantly at every book in the library.

The Ancestry.com Card Catalog will let you search by location, you just have to filter your way down to the level you want instead of typing in keywords to search subject headings the way you would in a library card catalog. The screen shot in this entry is reduced to show more of the page, but in the red circle is where you can filter by location.

Users can simply then scroll down to the desired state and click.

Once you choose a state, the list of counties will appear. That is what happened after I clicked on Illinois.

Every time you choose a new location, the right hand side of the page "updates" to reflect items cataloged based upon your new choice.

The county is as far down as you can go. When I choose the county, the list of locations from which to choose disappears. If you do not see anything, scroll up to the top of the webpage, that is what I had to do.

Then on the right hand side I saw my four references. On the left hand side (under the orangish search button) are clickable areas that tell me where my search is currently focused. I can click any of those to pull up the appropriate list again to change my filtering.

Or I can click on one of the "hits" and search it or (heaven forbid) actually read it.

Before you search the book, read the description so you know what you are searching. Remember that OCR searches do not always find people. I KNEW my ancestor's biography was in this book (I have a copy at home). Finding it searching for Ramply and Bamply did not located the desired entry. I performed a keyword search instead for the word "laurels" only because I remembered that word was in his biography (this has to be on the top of the list of minutia that I have remembered). Any way I did find his biography split over two pages, which is how it was in the original.

I even left the word "laurels" green from when I searched for it.

Of course if I save this material, I should track the book, author, publication information, online source, etc.

I like the Ancestry.com Card Catalog and am glad they either added it or I just noticed it. At any rate, it is helpful.

Now--if they would let me search just for materials in one county at a time instead of either books or just one book. I'm never satisfied.

And if any descendants of James Rampley (1803-1884) read this post, let me know. I'm his 3rd great-grandson.

Digital Collections at Brigham Young University

Full text searches are great--it takes a little while to find the full text search box for the family history materials in the digital collections at BYU, but I finally did.

http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cdm4/search.php

My suggestion is that those unfamiliar with the collection learn about it before searching. This site contains some scanned materials from the Allen County Public Library. One can also perform near searches as well. Pretty interesting.

Try Libraries for Directories too

The city directories on Ancestry.com. are an excellent source. The ones on Footnote.com are as well. However, there are other sites and locations to try.





The Hannibal Public Library has scanned city directories on its site, ranging from 1859 to 1929. Just as a fluke, I happened upon the site recently. They also have a scan of Stone's Tri-County Directory for 1892-93. This includes Adams County, Illinois, across the Missisippi River. Sure enough there was my ancestor, Bernard Dirks.



Lessons here: Libraries might have free digital images of some records.
And look at libraries outside your direct area of interest.

Search Tips on GenealogyBank

If you have missed the search tips page on Genealogy Bank, give it a read. There are some excellent suggestions there for using the OCR searches on their site. And keep in mind that you do not even have to fill in the name boxes. It pays to experiment and remember that you do not get more points for having every box filled in.

Do you need a Lookup or More Extended Research?

Sometimes all the genealogist really needs is a lookup. Sometimes they need more extended research. Which really depends upon the situation.



One lookup example stems from the newspaper article I located from 1892 in Quincy, Illinois. It references a court case regarding estate of my ancestor, Ulfert Behrens.
Years ago, when I was much younger, I located his estate file which included a copy of his will. I did not do land or court record work at that time. While I am always interested in land records, I don't need them right now and the family relationships have been fairly well documented with other records. However, this court case intrigued me. But do I need to hire someone for extensive work to research this? Probably not. All I really need in this case is information from the file.

However, I do need someone with research experience--even though they are doing a "lookup." Why?

1. So they know how to search for this record. The newspaper doesn't have any citation information.
2. So they know how to extract. There might only be a few papers in this file or there could easily be hundreds. In some cases, many of the pages may be repetitive or contain entirely legal jargon. I might not want to go to the expense of getting a copy of the "entire file."
3. They need to have experience searching this type of record and know what various items in the file mean and interpret them correctly.

In this case, I probably don't need a formal research report since one document is being researched. However, I do need to know what records were searched, how they were searched, and what the citation is for the records that were located.

A lookup might not be as simple as a lookup.

We will keep you posted on what the case file contains. There is more to this case than an heir filing a claim for "taking care of father during his last illness."

Checking Your Filter and your Junk Mail Folders?

How often do you check what goes into your junk mail or s *p*a*m folder? I just checked mine last night and there was one from a relative. Who knows how it got in there, but it pays to periodically scan those messages so that something does not get overlooked.

Google them All...

Honestly, I have not been in the habit of "googling" each and every relative, especially those who have probably been dead twenty or more years.

I am slowly (very slowly) working on the descendants of Barbara Haase (died 1903 Warsaw, Hancock County, Illinois). One granddaughter, Ruth Haase Hillberry was born ca. 1894 and lived in Michigan in the 1950s. On a whim I did a Google search for ruth haase hillberry and one of the results was a webpage hosted by Albion College's Special Collections Department that contained names of College alumni. One alumni was apparently Ruth Hillberry--see Ruth Haase. I contacted the college to see if they have any information on Mrs. Hillberry.

Just goes to show what you might locate when you google. I think I've got some more work to do.

Ancestry "My Family Tree" sources

I've been experimenting with the "Your Family Tree" section of the Ancestry.com site. Ancestry will give you hints in the hopes that you have overlooked records and will allow you to attach images (and source information) directly to your database. This is nice.

But be careful.

I was attaching a 1900 census citation to Samuel Neill--the basic screen that came up is shown here. Note the "show advanced options" link in the upper right hand corner.

When I clicked on it, the next screen appeared. The way it originally appeared, the 1900 census entry was "checked" as "add source" to the date and place of birth. However, the census enumeration was not as precise as the birthdate and place it was sourcing. The "add source" box comes up checked by default, meaning if you don't think to view it you may accidentally indicate the census says something it does not.

My best option here would have been to check the "add as alternate" fact. While technically not inconsistent with the information I originally had, I do NOT want to indicate the census said something it did not. Adding an alternate fact would allow me to use the census as a source for Samuel's birth and track EXACTLY what it said.

I wish this screen came up by default.

1830 Census Handwriting

Does it look like Jas. Kyle to you?


Sometimes it is clear to see how names get misread. This 1830 Census entry for Monroe Township, Licking County, Ohio, was located by searching manually. There are still times when a manual search is necessary. Not every name is easily readable.

Ancestry.com indexed this as "Gs Hyles" and it is easy to see how that might have happened--particularly with the last name. However, I think this is actually meant to be Jas. Kyle. James is known to have lived in the township for several decades

Using Genealogy for Passwords

Most of have too many passwords. Sometimes we even are forced to change passwords periodically and unable to "reuse" passwords for a specific amount of time. Colleagues at work have suggested using a word and a number after the word, incrementing the number by one each time. Great idea. Not.

If I can't remember whether I used bubbagum12 or bubbagum13 and I enter in the wrong one too many times, I get kicked out.

I designed a different system. I use initials (or names) of relatives and their year of birth. This works better for me as I "know" from memory the name of each ancestor through my great-grandparents with their year of birth. Then my challenge question is simply "so and so" and I know what it means.

For those who say that others might be able to figure it out based upon the challenge question, that is taken care of too. I have "nicknames" for each grandparent that no would (other than my parents) would know. My challenge question is not "Grandma Neill," but rather "Grandma Goose" (not her real nickname), or "Grandma Goose's mother." Then I know to whom I was referring and I can enter the appropriate password.

I just got sick and tired of making up arbitrary passwords I could never remember.

Are You Looking in Surrounding Counties?

I stumbled upon it to be honest.

The Hannibal (Missouri) Public Library has digital images of many county and city directories on their website. While I have no family in that area, I made an interesting discovery. The 1892-1893 directory, actually Stone's Tri-County Directory for 1892-93, is one of the items included on their site. It includes Adams County, Illinois, right across the river and where I do have ancestors. The directories are searchable as well--a nice feature.

It always pays to check out surrounding counties for information that may be relevant to your search, even if your ancestors never lived in those counties and even if those counties cross rivers or state lines.

[the first screen shot shows part of the directory for Golden, Illinois, in Adams County].

Keep in mind that some names may be spelled incorrectly in the directory, which makes searching even more difficult. The partial image here (also from Golden) shows several names, including Ulfert Idens, which should actually be Ulfert Ideus.

The towns are organized alphabetically; I did not notice a table of contents. A little more searching located the entries for Coatsburgh, where I located my 3rd great-grandfather Bernard Dirks.

The Dirks entry got me to wondering about the numbers after the names. I knew they were not section numbers--the numbers only were 1, 2, and 3.

A little more searching led me to the list of abbreviations, something that one needs to look for in any directory of any kind.

The list of abbreviations told me that the 1 after my ancestor's name indicated he owned his farm. The list of abbreviations is included at the end of this post. This directory is really neat and those with Hannibal ancestors will find many more on this site. I was happy to find just one!

Newspapers at Footnote.com

Footnote.com has added more newspapers from Chicago during the 1870-1877 era. The Chicago Tribune is the paper currently being added.

Users of Footnote.com have been viewing the images and some have noted pages of marriages show in the newspaper, such as this one from 1880. The nice thing is that the newspapers have OCR search, so a full-text search is possible. Keep in mind that Footnote.com is still adding newspapers and that their collection is incomplete.

Of course, if one finds a marriage referenced in a newspaper, the actual civil and religious record (if applicable) should be searched. If the civil record indicates the officiant was a justice of the peace, then looking for a record of a religious ceremony is ill-advised.

I've been searching the Chicago Tribune for some of my wife's Frame family, but so far no luck. Part of the problem is that the last name "Frame" is more difficult to search for since many references are to frames, being framed, etc. But if anyone finds references in the paper to a Thomas or Elizabeth Frame, please forward them off to me.

Newspapers are a wonderful source and the more they are converted to digital format, the easier they will be to search.

New York Vital Records Index Lookups

I've been reading Dick Hillebrand's blog about obtaining copies of vital records in New York. Yesterday he posted an update to information he blogged about earlier in regards to free lookups in the indexes.

Those who are interested in the lookups are highly encouraged to follow the directions he has posted from the library on the website. The directions are clear and easy to follow and the librarians are offering this service on a voluntary basis. Do NOT send them a request for a search of "all Smiths" from 1900 until 1930.

I sent my request in Monday, as soon as I found out about the Onondaga Library's service. I was looking for Louis Demar, a Clinton County, New York native who after living in Chicago for 30 years, returned to Clinton County. I actually forgot about my request, but today in my inbox was the response:


"There seems to be a match in 1935 - here is the listing as it reads: Louis Demar 6 Oct 1935, Saranac, #60631This is a confirmation that there is a record. If you contact Saranac they should assist you with getting a copy! "

A BIG thanks to the library for providing this service. I appreciate it.

Now, I'm off to get a copy. We'll be posting updates as we get them.