I don't call this "mesiras nefesh." I call this yet another reason why the kollel system is wrong. Hashem wants us to use our talents for the good of society.

wow, I was just about to write exactly what former avreich just said.

I agree- the facelessness of the kollel system is not another sign of mesirus nefesh- it's another symptom of what's wrong with the system. It's also very similar to the reason why communism collapsed- all citizens became faceless cogs in the state system, living on state handouts. Most lost the will to strive to be successful. One could look at this as "misirus nefehsh" for the cause of communism. Or you could see it as forcing men to suppress the natural psychological need to seek recognition, success, accomplishment. This doesn't mean looking for these things only in the business world- for some men being a successful plumber, baker housepainter is just as rewarding as an investment banker making millions. The point is to strive for that achievement. It doesn't seem like the kollel system affords this type of opportunity, which is another reason why it's a failing system.

I too would have a hard time defining this as Mesirus Nefesh. I guess it depends on ones standards. If there was a Dr. who gives up a lucrative practice in the U.S. to move to Israel and once here starts from "stag", works as just another Dr. in a hospital, and takes a huge pay cut - would this too be considered Mesiras Nefesh?

I don't call this "mesiras nefesh." I call this yet another reason why the kollel system is wrong. Hashem wants us to use our talents for the good of society.

This is crazy talk. First of all - LEARNING TORAH IS GOOD FOR SOCIETY! Ever hear of מאי אהני לן רבנן? The Chofetz Chaim is just one of the many,many people who Paskened Halachah L'Maaseh that learning Torah is a better use of one's time than ANY contribution to society, including saving lives!

Besides, we're talking about people who could leave Kollel after 2 years and shoot with BB guns, after 5 years and shoot with pistols, or after 20 years and shoot with cannons. So the 20 years of obscurity are entirely an exercise in Mesirus Nefesh.

Ever hear of מאי אהני לן רבנן

But these aren't Rabbanan!

The Chofetz Chaim is just one of the many,many people who Paskened Halachah L'Maaseh that learning Torah is a better use of one's time than ANY contribution to society, including saving lives!

Oh really? So why did he spend time writing sefarim instead of learning?

Besides, we're talking about people who could leave Kollel after 2 years and shoot with BB guns, after 5 years and shoot with pistols, or after 20 years and shoot with cannons

But most people don't end up shooting with anything. They end up going door-to-door collecting money to marry off their kids.

anonymous,

1) Can you please provide a source for your claim that "The Chofetz Chaim is just one of the many,many people who Paskened Halachah L'Maaseh that learning Torah is a better use of one's time than ANY contribution to society, including saving lives!"

2) Isn't it ironic that youbring a proof from someone who owned and ran a grocery store (with his wife) instead of relying on handouts to support his learning?

Im a diff anon, but the CC's opinion is no secret. Take a look at the Biur Halacha in 231, and also in 156

The CC does not appear to be talking about avreichim in kollel.

annon #2 - where exactly in Biur Halacha 156 or 231 does the CC even elude to the fact that talmud torah is more important than saving lives?

But these aren't Rabbanan!

Perhaps the whole quote will help you (Sanhedrin 99b)-

מאי אהני לן רבנן לדידהו קרו לדידהו תנו

The Gemara is not talking about Poskim. Rashi there:

והם אינם יודעים שהעולם מתקיים עליהם

Oh really? So why did he spend time writing sefarim instead of learning?

Because all of those Sefarim were a Mitzvah that was not being done by others, and he was afraid of having to give a Din in Shamayim for why he did not write them. If someone else had written them he would have gladly foregone the contribution of Sefarim and continued to learn.


But most people don't end up shooting with anything. They end up going door-to-door collecting money to marry off their kids.

That's just not true. Out of all the tens of thousands in Lakewood, Mir etc., how many have gone collecting? And, how many Mechanchim and Mechabrei Sefarim, even Poskei Hador, have to do the same (i.e. it isn't a function of Kollel. How much do you think Rav Elyashiv gave R' Chaim Kanievsky?)

Isn't it ironic that youbring a proof from someone who owned and ran a grocery store (with his wife) instead of relying on handouts to support his learning

He did that for a while. But he explicitly sanctions taking money for learning in Biur Halachah. R' Moshe Feinstein paskens that anyone who wants to Pasken the Rambam nowadays is in the clutches of his Yetzer Hara.

See Toras Habayis by the CC, Chapter 4.

where exactly in Biur Halacha 156 or 231 does the CC even elude to the fact that talmud torah is more important than saving lives?

תורת הבית פרק ה
חז|ל גילו לנו שאף שגדול מצותה של פיקוח נפש מאוד אבל זה שלא נזדמן לו מצוה זו ורק עסק בתורה באותו הזמן לא נופל ממנו ואדרבה הוא הגדיל לעשות שגדול ת"ת מהצלת נפשות

I will only add, if the yungerman is not tzufrieden, then there is something wrong. He either doesn't appreciate what he is doing, or he is not learning after all these years with the proper attention.
To stay in Kollel not being happy, seems to me wrong, but who am I?

To clarify something which may not have been obvious: The Chafetz Chayim is talking about a situation where if you don't save the person's life, somebody else will. So by saving the life you aren't doing anything to improve the situation, while you are missing out on Torah study.

When we talk about "saving lives" we normally mean a situation in which if we don't intervene, perhaps nobody else will. So the Chafetz Chayim's comments as brought by "anonymous" are irrelevant and (in this context) misleading. Talmud Torah is NOT more important than saving lives if we use the normal definitions of both terms.

Talmud Torah is NOT more important than saving lives if we use the normal definitions of both terms.

The context is WHAT SHOULD I CHOOSE TO DO WHEN HAVING ALL OPTIONS OPEN. Should I be a doctor, paramedic, lawyer, cancer researcher, or Kollel man. The correct answer, says the CC, is KOLLEL MAN.

Your comments are the misleading ones.

Out of all the tens of thousands in Lakewood, Mir etc., how many have gone collecting?

You're right, they are being supported by their parents. It's the next generation who will be doing the collecting - just as happens in Israel now.

It's funny that you quote the Gemara and the Chafetz Chaim - the kollel system as we have it today did not exist in their time. People were more sane back then and realized that wholesale kollel is just not the right way to run society. Nowadays, people are learning it the hard way.

I think we strayed off topic and gone onto defending\bashing the kollel system in general- which Rafi wanted to avoid. The comments I originally posted were focused on whether the term Mesiras Nefesh were appropriate in describing those who learn in kollel.

getting on track, I thought about your posts and remember a discussion I had with a psychologist friend. I would say that on an almost equal level to money, it is mesiras nefesh. many people take jobs that may provide more recognition than money - take a look at the US presidency. The job is only worth about 300K, but look at the prestige. Many of these people could be getting much richer than the limits put on them during their term in office. the human ego is much stronger than given credit for. A kollel avreich willing to stay unrecognized, and just sit and learn , or teach for the sake of talmud torah, is being moser nefesh for himself. he is conquering his yetzer and giving up a lot.

shaya g - so would you agree with me in the Dr. scenario that he too is being moser nefesh to live in Israel?

I think anyone living in Israel is being moser nefesh. whether due to the unemplyment, mitzva of yishuv, the physical danger, the dollar value, etc....

just like the mesiras nefesh of a housewife/mother who could have been a career woman

ok, but let's clarify. It isn't mesiras nefesh to sit in kollel, just to avoid work or the real world. If one truly wants to sit and learn, ragrdless of their actual skill/level. and they choose to sit and learn over a life of either riches or recognition, THAT is mesiras nefesh. sitting in Kollle l in order to avoid the army or in order to avoid work, that isn't.

same for a mother. becoming a housewife, which is more work in a day than a career woman, in order to be at home with the kids, over getting more money and fame, that is also mesiras nefesh for the benefit of her family. Unfortunately, finances sometimes dictate that such mesiras nefesh isn't practical. One till needs to pay rent/mortgage and put some sort of food on the table.

sorry - I was away from my computers all day so i could not keep track of the comments...

You guys got off track discussing whether the kollel system is good or bad, and whether people should or should not be leartning in kollel. It is not a discussion I want to have, so I will not add my comments to it..


On the topic of the post, yes I would say such a Dr. is being moser nefesh to live in Eretz Yisrael.
The fact that at a certain point people might get frustrated due to not being recognized for their accomplishments, does not take away from their mesirus nefesh, they are human, and at times will consider whether they are doing the right or wrong thing. There is nothing wrong with that.

The fact that they are willing to do somethign that they believe in (even if you do not), and is a great value to the Jewish nation (and I specifically wrote that i was talking about guys who are learning seriously, not guys who are in kollel because they can't do anything else and spend half the time smoking or drinking coffee - this would not apply to them), is mesirus nefesh.

Thumbs up from a Lakewood (and out-of-town) former Kollel guy...

Most of the working people I know -- other than the very successful ones -- live their lives in obscurity and suffer indignities (both at work and within the community eg negotiating tuition breaks as non-Mechnachim) far worse than what is described here in the kollel system in EY.

How many working stiffs get to do what they are good at or what they enjoy? Not too many, far as I can tell. Added to that, they have to commute several hours a day, leave their homes a heck of a lot earlier in the morning, and get home a heck of a lot later than the fellows you describe.

Bottom line: I don't see how the average kollel guy's life is any less lacking in self-esteem-building experiences than the average Yankel's is.

anonymous - I considered that and here are my thoughts. Yes, there are situations like that. Anybody plugging away at a job of obscurity is also moser nefesh to support his family or whatever.

But I think most jobs are not like that.
Let's say you have a good day as a lawyer. You find some clause in a contract that helps your client save money. Those around you, and of course the client, will, most times, praise you for it, congratulate you, somehow notice you had a good day at work. If you are a computer guy, or whatever else you might be, your boss will notice that you solved a problem today, you are doing a good job, you came up with a unique way of dealing with whatever.

When you are in kollel, most kollels (though not all), nobody notices that you figured out pshat in tosafos. The other guys in the kollel don't care. Thhey are busy with their own tosafos or whatever.

The obscurity of kollel, living in an area where kollel is commom, is far far greater than the obscurity of your average job.

"One guy leaving means another guy is missing a chavrusa. So he has to recruit an avreich . . ."

i think he was trying to recruit you.

but seriously, i hear what you are saying. however, i think that every occupation has its psychological stresses. by way of personal example, if i pursue the most poplar avenue of my soon-to-be profession, i will face thirty years of being yelled at on a constant basis. i would gladly trade a life of being anonymous to being cursed and yelled at. if you want we can start comparing which specific type of psychological stress is a greater "mesiras nefesh," but i just don't think that kollel is the only place with psychological stress.

also, i thought that kollel guys are doing what they do lishma, for a higher cause, etc. why are they so concerned being anonymous?

I did not say other jobs do not have that aspect, and if all you do is get yelled at and never get praised, maybe your job too would be considered mesirus nefesh.. maybe you just need to look for a better job workign with more human people!

But seriously, kollel being mesirus nefesh, which is what this was about, does not mean other jobs are not.

And we are very quick to demand total l'shma and perfection of others. we have to remember those people are humans. It can take a lifetime or more to achieve perfection in thought and intent. Maybe some people get it quicker and don't feel this lack of attention or obscurity, but they are humans, and plenty of them, even of for many years they did learn ignoring all the "lack of attention" eventually it can get to many of them. We forget they are humans. And they are generally, at least the ones I am referring to in this post, at ages where we have no right to yet demand such perfection from them. As an ideal, yes. As a goal yes. But that at age 30, 32 they should already be perfect and not feel the human aspect of it? I think that is asking a bit much.

"Unfortunately, finances sometimes dictate that such mesiras nefesh isn't practical. One till needs to pay rent/mortgage and put some sort of food on the table."

So al achat kama v'kama, isn't it more misirut nefesh to work a paying job and take care of the house and children? Most jobs held by working mothers rarely garner them huge amounts of fame or prestige. And husbands help out to varying degrees, but in the end, it's usually still up to the mother to keep things running smoothly with the house and children.



I fail to see how working mothers are any less moser nefesh then SAHMs.

Abbi - I never said any one person was more moser nefesh tan anyone else. I wrote about the mesirus nefesh of one group of people. I did not compare them to other groups or categories. I did not say they are more or less than others.

I had noticed that in general they get a bad rap, and here specifically I might have recently been too negative, not specifically on kollel but on Haredim in general in many instances, so I felt like writing a post about their mesirus nefesh to learn Torah.

I did not make comparisons to others. Mothers too are moser nefesh to raise their kids properly Fathers are moser nefesh to work or learn or whatever and to spend time with the kids and study and learn with them and support a family. Lawyers are moser nefesh, doctors, etc. Whoever you want to talk about, there is plenty to discuss to describe the mesirus nefesh of each one. This post was simply about the mesirus nefesh of avreichim, described in a way that many people had never previously considered. That's it.

Much of a man's self-esteem and self-image is related to his ability to provide for himself and his family. Kollel people by definition are giving up on that. That is a huge sacrifice which does not stop being a huge sacrifice for as long as it continues.

abbi - I wasn't saying stah are more moser nefesh than working mothers - I said though there is a diff between a working mom and a career mom - just like a kollel guy who works or a baal habos who work s and makes just enough money to feed his family versus a career man or woman who pulls in 6 mil a year and still can't find the time to learn with his kids or play catch once in a while.

regardless, a kollel guys recognition is his novel pshat in a tosfos, and an employees recognition is praise he gets on a job. both can be moser nefesh for their families, and both can be man or woman.

I was chatting with my coworker the other day. We were talking about working for a living and the topic of mesirus nefesh to earn a living came up (my coworker is a CEO. He is very organized, very serious and runs his company in a very organized way).

Working guys are moser nefesh - they give up everything, to earn a living. To choose a profession. And that is wonderful.

Typically when we hear the phrase "moser nefesh to work for a living" we think of money. These individuals are giving up a life of (possible) comfort, being provided for, all to work while living on, often, nothing more than the basics and the minimum.

Aside from the money aspect of their mesirus nefesh, there is an aspect even greater. And this is what I had never heard described before. The whole lifestyle is mesirus nefesh on a psychological level.

Working men, living in an area where there are plenty of kollels and plenty of avreichim, live a life of obscurity. Many of these guys (the more serious ones), could easily have been successful in the kollel world. They would have been accepted, their work would be respected, and they would feel good about what they do because they are noticed (to a certain extent).

However, as a working guy in a neighborhood where baalebatim and professionals are "a dime a dozen" so to speak, these guys are all bundled into one package. They are not noticed because there are so many. An exception is one who is unusually exceptional - he gets noticed as a real gvir, he will often take a position fairly quickly on a shul board, or in a yeshiva, etc. But just for good serious guys who are working, successfully, there is tremendous mesirus nefesh in living such a lifestyle. These are, often, guys who could be doing other things, yet they chose to work because of its importance to them.

He went on to explain that this is why, he thinks, he sees many frustrated working guys at about age 29-32, who start looking for things to do - starting local organizations or shuls even for just 20 or 30 people, for example. They do that because they have begun to get frustrated that they have worked, and worked well, for a number of years, but they are not noticed at all.

Yes, it is nice to be altruistic and say that people should do what they love and not be concerned whether they are being noticed or not. Especially when providing for a family. But everybody likes, and wants, to be appreciated, and recognized, for their accomplishments and for their success. So even if for a number of years they go by and work quietly, eventually it catches up with them, with most of them, and they start to feel it at a certain point.

That is a tremendous mesirus nefesh. To work for a living, seriously, knowing that nobody is recognizing you for your accomplishments, for your achievements, for your contributions. And add to that, when you could have been doing something else that would have gotten you noticed, even if only on a small scale. And it is harder for a working guy who is in an area where kollel is more accepted, and even the standard perhaps, than it is for a guy who goes to work in an "out of town" community where it is not the norm and they are appreciated by the local baalebatim, and they get involved, etc.

If you are learning in Kollel and you accomplish something successfully, likely you will have your peers commend you, your rebbeim will be proud when you tell them, you will be able to invite one and all to a siyum or a kiddush in honor of your accomplishment. Your efforts will get noticed and you will get complimented. You will be respected. And even if not, there the self satisfaction of knowing that there is a higher purpose and a reward far greater to be earned.

If you are working, and you are working seriously, your efforts will almost never get noticed. You figured out a way to crunch the numbers better, or to make a process run a little smoother! Wow! You are so excited. You tell the guys you’re friends with, and they could care less. They were not bothered by your work issue and just want you to leave them alone so they can work out their own difficult problems.

That weighs down on a person, even somebody who is supposed to be working L'shma, to provide for his family and take care of his responsibilities, will often be affected by this eventually. These guys are human and want to be noticed for their accomplishments just like the rest of us.

That is mesirus nefesh in a way that you probably have not considered

G - lol.. only one thing I would disagree with - you write "Working men, living in an area where there are plenty of kollels and plenty of avreichim, live a life of obscurity." and forgot to change it. working guys are the exception in a neighborhood with plenty of kollels...

but seriously, in most jobs and in most companies, employees generally get recognition for their hard work. There are exceptions, there are bad bosses and bad environments, but overall most work environments are reasonable and give that level of recognition for an employees accomplishments.

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you write "Working men, living in an area where there are plenty of kollels and plenty of avreichim, live a life of obscurity." and forgot to change it. working guys are the exception in a neighborhood with plenty of kollels...

No...no, i didn't. What you still do not seem to grasp is that it does not matter if the majority of the people work for a living or are in kollel. Either way, regardless of whether or not you are the exception or the rule, most people feel that they live a life of obscurity. That is nature of "life" for most. If you are in the majority then you "simply get lost in the shuffle" and if you are in the minority then you "get overlooked or ignored". It all comes down to what perspective you wish to take as an individual.

but seriously, in most jobs and in most companies, employees generally get recognition for their hard work. There are exceptions, there are bad bosses and bad environments, but overall most work environments are reasonable and give that level of recognition for an employees accomplishments.

Before i respond to this one, might i inquire as to your familiarity w/ the work place?

familiarity? I work in it. I have been working in the work place at a steady job for almost 10 years.

this all reminds me of a story that i once read, that during the yom kippur war, rav gustman (if i remember correctly)was once told that the yeshiva guys are also being "moser nefesh" in their learning.
rav gustman answered that even so, the yeshiva guy doesn't have to say a birchat hagomel when he comes home at night after a day in kollel.

i like that story.. and it does sound like Rav Gustman from other stories I have heard about him...