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RfC regarding the inclusion of the "convicted child sex offender" in first sentence

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Should the article include the words "convicted child sex offender" in first sentence ? PrinceofPunjab^TALK 07:40, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

He is actually known for his crime conviction. There is no notable tournament he has won. In fact, this very article was created only after he was convicted of the crime. Also, conviction being a decade ago doesn't mean that it is any less notable. Also, WP:SPA PrinceofPunjab^TALK 08:01, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- The Dutch article lists him as winning the Dutch national volleyball tournament numerous years. The fact that this article was created after the conviction can be explained by the anglophone audience being more interested in that than his volleyball career. Glennznl (talk) 08:26, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  - The Dutch national beach volleyball tour is not a notable tournament in the beach volleyball world. Notable tournaments are international ones and looks like he didn't get further than quarterfinals there in the last few years. CatalanSpaniard (talk) 17:43, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  - Besides this, his primary notability as a volleyball player can easily be proved, because we don't write Wikipedia articles about any child rapist that hits the news. He is notable for being a professional volleyball player, who also raped a child. --Glennznl (talk) 10:45, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    - In the Anglo world he is famous for being a dutch athlete that raped a child yet only one part of that gets mentioned in the first sentence or the lead? AstraIgnea (talk) 16:44, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Not really Glennznl, he wasn't known as a volleyball player before he raped the child, especially not on the beach volleyball world tour. There were many other better Dutch players at the time. CatalanSpaniard (talk) 18:14, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, it is a part of his main identity. 50.27.41.37 (talk) 11:04, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Added a hidden note to the page indicating that it should be discussed here before adding "child rapist" to the lead. LakesideMiners^{Come Talk To Me!} 12:40, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Why? The editor that requested this simply questioned it being in the first sentence, not in the lead. CatalanSpaniard (talk) 18:10, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@PrinceofPunjab: Why have you gone straight to a full-blown thirty-day formal WP:RFC without (so far as I can tell) trying anything shown at WP:RFCBEFORE, let alone exhausting those suggestions? --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 15:23, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Right? Also, all mention of him being a criminal has been removed from the first paragraph and moved to the bottom of the page now. And the post is locked! Is this a PR cleanup? CatalanSpaniard (talk) 17:40, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No MOS:BIOFIRSTSENTENCE says the first sentence should include the main reason the person is notable. It appears the main reason this person is notable is for being a beach volleyball player. I would have to see a lot more evidence to suggest he's more notable for the conviction. The conviction can be mentioned in the lead of course, but it doesn't belong in the first sentence. Nemov (talk) 16:10, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Does it make any destinctions between language? Because in the Anglo world he is more notable for his conviction but I get the impression that is not the case in the Netherlands. In the UK for example he is only mentioned in mainstream media for his original crime and now that they are being critical of him competing in this years olympics. The fact that in English he has only received media coverage for his crime suggests that the crime should probably go in his first line. AstraIgnea (talk) 16:48, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  - AstraIgnea, Nemov is correct. We're the English Wikipedia, not the Wikipedia that only looks at English sources. Drmies (talk) 16:55, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Dutch media reports on this a lot too. Looking at the edit history, the page had something like this on it since like 2016: "Steven van de Velde (born 8 August 1994, in The Hague) is a Dutch beach volleyball player and convicted rapist." — why is it being removed now? CatalanSpaniard (talk) 17:50, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, he is a criminal. The rape is what he's known for in professional and amateur beach volleyball circles for the last 10 years. Also, most media about him has been on this, not about his volleyball career. Every other athlete and convicted rapist has this mentioned in their first line: (1) "Darren Mallory Sharper (born November 3, 1975) is an American convicted serial rapist and a former football safety who played in the National Football League (NFL) for 14 seasons." (2) "Dana William Stubblefield (born November 14, 1970) is an American former professional football player and convicted sex offender." (3) "Gary Thomas Brabham (born 29 March 1961) is a former professional racing driver and a convicted child sex offender from Australia." (4) "Felipe Javier Vázquez (né Rivero, born July 5, 1991) is a Venezuelan convicted sex offender and former professional baseball pitcher." Even robbers and other criminals have it mentioned: (5) "Clifford Etienne (born March 9, 1970) is an American former professional boxer and convicted robber, who is currently serving a 105-year prison sentence without the possibility of parole." (6) "Sergio Armando Mitre (born February 16, 1981) is a Mexican-American convicted felon and former professional baseball pitcher." At the very least it should be in the second sentence. Now someone has removed it and moved it to the bottom of the page. Looks like whitewashing or some PR work. CatalanSpaniard (talk) 17:26, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- CatalanSpaniard, we're not on Facebook here. Please keep your accusations to yourself. Drmies (talk) 21:25, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  I looked at the edit history and this page was largely unchanged for years. It had that he's a rapist in the first line, and further details. Someone removed all of it and moved it to the bottom of the page. They're not accusations, they're facts. CatalanSpaniard (talk) 05:37, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
context: https://old.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/1dovnqu/dutch_volleyball_player_jailed_for_raping_british/ 46.253.187.227 (talk) 17:58, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, or alternatively just regular old "convicted sex offender" per similar example on Scott Ritter. Given more than half of this article is dedicated to the subject's child sex crimes and he seems to be more notable for it than he is for playing volleyball, it would not be UNDUE to have it in the lead sentence in the slightest. ser! ^{(chat to me - see my edits)} 19:04, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Just for context, look at the WP:RSP coverage of Van De Velde.

BBC: Convicted rapist (their other article on him is about the same)

The Telegraph: Dutch volleyball player who raped 12-year-old

The Times: Child rapist

The Australian: Rapist of girl, and a similar op-ed on it.

Given the sheer amount of coverage for him being a child rapist outweighs his volleyball career significantly, not including this in the sentence is a poor idea in my eyes. ser! ^{(chat to me - see my edits)} 19:09, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

User:Ser!, two things. First of all this is something that is hitting the news all over the world, and it's juicy. Second, re: the content of the article, that's just poor article writing--he's a five-time national champion, which is not reflected in our argument. I'm not going to argue the conviction shouldn't be in the lead; I think I'm fine with this version. Drmies (talk) 21:25, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I take your point on the latter, though I could find very little coverage outside of just WP:MILL mentions of him in the context of the Dutch national team to indicate notability - it feels like even in a case of poor article writing there's still sod-all with which to actually write an article, meaning the amount of focus in the article atm on the whole sex abuser thing makes sense. No objections to the current version, I've just seen enough cases of not particularly notable sex offenders/felons having it alongside their original reason for notability in the lede, and as much as I'm aware WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, it just felt strange to me that this would be an outlier.... ser! ^{(chat to me - see my edits)} 22:47, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Drmies, your claims of his achievements are not reflected in the article, feel free to add them. The first line used to reflect the content of the article. He's globally and locally known for the rape since 2016 when it first made headlines. He's more well known for this than winning the Dutch volleyball tour a few times. Beach volleyball isn't big in Holland, but indoor volleyball is 3rd. If you're arguing to not include it here, are you also raising this on the pages of other convicted felons? CatalanSpaniard (talk) 05:35, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. He is much more notable as a child rapist than a volleyball player. CatalanSpaniard and ser! has elaborated. Pauline Muley (talk) 19:44, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, because Wikipedia is not censored, so a balanced and neutral article should contain notable information about his criminal convictions, as they are on the public record just as his sporting achievements are. Since the lead should follow the body of an article, it should also contain a summary of what criminal offence(s) he has been convicted of. The term "convicted child sex offender" would appear to convey that, although that is not the only way the information could be phrased. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 21:53, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This RFC is about the first sentence of the lead. This information would still be in the lead. So WP:NOTCENSORED, WP:BALANCE, or WP:NPOV isn't relevant to the discussion of MOS:BIOFIRSTSENTENCE. Nemov (talk) 13:17, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. I second ser!’s argument regarding the WP:RSP coverage on the subject. The vast majority of English-speaking news articles reporting on his to date biggest and most notable achievement as an athlete mention his past crime in their headlines with most of them directly using the ‘rapist’ descriptor. This descriptor has been part of the lead sentence for five years. Why change it now that there is even more press coverage on it? quidama _talk 05:40, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes Unfortunately that is what he is known for. Otherwise we have to delete the article which wouldn't be a bad idea. We don't have an article for every sex offender as we are not a repository of information on such things.— Iadmc ♫^talk 13:46, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Steven van de Velde is a convicted rapist. 50.101.88.106 (talk) 17:53, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not done. See above discussion. LakesideMiners^{Come Talk To Me!} 18:09, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 49: / Line 49: @@
 :'''Yes.''' I second ser!’s argument regarding the [[WP:RSP]] coverage on the subject. The vast majority of English-speaking news articles reporting on his to date biggest and most notable achievement as an athlete mention his past crime in their headlines with most of them directly using the ‘rapist’ descriptor. This descriptor has been part of the lead sentence for five years. Why change it now that there is even more press coverage on it? [[User:Quidama|<span style="background: linear-gradient(156deg, #ffffff 0%, #f9f9f9 67%); box-shadow: 1px 1px 2px #d1d1d1; color:#800080; padding: 2px 10px; border-radius: 8px"><b>quidama</b></span>]] [[User talk:Quidama|<sub>talk</sub>]] 05:40, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
+:'''Yes''' Unfortunately that is what he is known for. Otherwise we have to '''delete the article''' which wouldn't be a bad idea. We don't have an article for every sex offender as we are not a repository of information on such things.—<span style="background-color: #EAE6FF">[[User:Iadmc|<span style="color: #0247FE">&nbsp;Iadmc</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Iadmc|<span style="color: black">♫</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Iadmc|<span style="color: #0247FE">talk&nbsp;</span>]]</sup></span>  13:46, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
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