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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2022 3:46 pm 
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I is still strange that the Russian Navy kept risking a high seas carrier hunter like Moskva that close to shore. The Snake Island affair should not have happened and it seems like they did not learn from this. After replacing most of his generals Putin may start replacing some admirals.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2022 4:47 pm 
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I may have doubts about this source below. And furthermore, how this group of 50 Russian sailors got separated from the rest of the crew brings up more questions:

And Mods, isn't it about time we changed the title to "Russian cruiser Moskva SUNK" regardless of the cause of its demise, considering how many more reputable western sources are already reporting its loss?

TRT World

Quote:
Turkish ship rescues over 50 Russian sailors from naval cruiser Moskva
12 HOURS AGO

Lithuania's defence minister says a Turkish vessel rescued Russian sailors after the flagship vessel sent out a distress signal following an explosion and fire on board.
Ukrainian military says it struck the Russian warship with Neptune missiles.

A Turkish ship has evacuated 54 personnel on board the Russian Black Sea Fleet flagship cruiser Moskva, which was reportedly hit by Ukraine, Lithuania has said.

The rescue was carried out after the Russian cruiser sent out a distress call at night, a report of the Anadolu Agency citied Lithuania's Minister of National Defence Arvydas Anusauskas as saying on Thursday.

"At 1.14 am, the cruiser lay on its side, and after half an hour, all the electricity went out. From 2 am, the Turkish ship evacuated 54 sailors from the cruiser, and at about 3 am, Türkiye and Romania reported that the ship had completely sunk. The related loss of Russian personnel is still unknown, although there were 485 crew on board (66 of them officers)," Anusauskas said.

(...SNIPPED)

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2022 5:14 pm 
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A ship, understood to be Moskva, is seen surrounded by smaller vessels. The image is created using synthetic aperture radar (SAR) which can see through clouds. According to Russian accounts she was on fire and exploded. And sunk later while under tow.

Satellite Image Pinpoints Russian Cruiser Moskva As She Burned

Image

Analysis of radar satellite imagery has revealed the location of the Moskva soon after she was reportedly hit by 2 missiles. The Russian Navy cruiser was the flagship of the Black Sea Fleet and is a symbolic as well as naval loss for Russia.

H I Sutton 15 Apr 2022

The Russian cruiser Moskva will go down in history. The sinking will be studied and written about, both as a single event and, likely, a key moment in the War.
The fog of war is still obscuring the event, and information operations are clouding it further. But we can look again at the open source intelligence (OSINT) picture. In particular, the ship’s movements and where she was when it happened.
Analysis of radar satellite imagery of the northern Black Sea on April 13, appears to pinpoint the stricken ship. Other vessels are seen in attendance. The location of the event can now, for the first time, be given coordinates.

A ship matching Moskva’s size and situation is seen at 45°10’43.39″N, 30°55’30.54″E. This position is east of Snake Island, 80 nautical miles from Odesa and 50 nautical miles from the Ukrainian coast. The satellite passed at 6.52pm local time. Based on analysis by multiple people, we are confident that this shows Moskva’s final hours.
The ship was reportedly hit by two Ukrainian missiles. This has been disputed, or omitted in Russian sources but has been confirmed by a Pentagon source, says the AFP News Agency. If a Ukrainian Neptune anti-ship missile was used (and we treat this as unconfirmed at this time), then the location is within range. Moskva has been active since the start of the invasion and this location matches with patterns we observed previously.

Image

Ukrainian Neptune anti-ship missile being test fired in 2020. Photo: Ukrainian Ministry of Defense
Because of the nature of the low-resolution radar satellite imagery we cannot be certain of the identification. But it matches and, following second opinions, we now have confidence that this is it.
The location is also very close to where the ship was sighted on April 12 in satellite imagery.
It is Time

The loss of the flagship of the Black Sea Fleet (BSF), Moskva, is a serious blow to the Russian Navy. And a massive propaganda coup for the Ukrainians who could not have wished for a more symbolic target.
Moskva was a dated platform. It’s offensive capabilities, with P-1000 Vulkan missiles, were still formidable. And it’s S-300F still relevant. Yet it had received few upgrades to keep it up to date. Its situational awareness and defensive capabilities were likely dated. This highlights the challenges which have been facing the Russian Navy for the past 30 years. There is a mismatch between Russia’s financial situation and its Naval assets. This has led to increased reliance on legacy platforms.
At the collapse of the Soviet Union Russia inherited a superpower-scale Navy. Not one without deficiencies, but certainly one with global reach and some powerful capabilities. As the economic realities of the 1990s hit this vast armada was scaled back. Naturally the older platforms were the first to go, leaving a leaner but overall more modern core.

At the time the Slava class cruisers were among the most impressive. Together with the Kirov class battle cruisers and single aircraft carrier, they became de facto capitol ships of the new Russian navy. But since then investment and progress has been slow. Russia has shown plans for modern large destroyers or cruisers, but has not been able to afford to build any.

Some modern warships have been built but they are all much smaller. And so we have the Black Sea Fleet of the Ukraine Invasion, centered around the aging Moskva. With the smaller units actually being more modern. Both conceptually and technologically.

It is hard to predict where the naval aspect of the war will go from here. Russia still has a numerical and technological advantage in the Northern Black Sea, but Ukraine appears to have a means to fight back. Russia still has control of merchant shipping, but she may have lost full command of the sea.

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... he-burned/

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2022 7:05 pm 
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Moskva may have had nuclear warheads.


LINK: https://www.dailywire.com/news/sunk-rus ... =position5


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2022 7:36 pm 
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FrancisMcN wrote:
There is quite an useful analysis of the incident here:

https://www.navylookout.com/russian-cru ... lications/

Excellent, balanced article. Thanks for sharing!

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2022 12:28 am 
Saw the TRT broadcast also and wondered why a Turkish ship was in a war zone.

If the magazine(s) blew, one would expect significant casualties.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2022 1:25 am 
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Probably a couple of Su-24s.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2022 10:11 am 
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Pieter wrote:
I is still strange that the Russian Navy kept risking a high seas carrier hunter like Moskva that close to shore. The Snake Island affair should not have happened and it seems like they did not learn from this. After replacing most of his generals Putin may start replacing some admirals.


Strange? I found it completely in line with the raft of idiotic decisions they have been taking last couple of months... Having said that, they were supposedly distracted by drones, were blind on radar to the side missiles came from, etc. It was it seems, a pretty complex operation by Ukrainian side, and quite a feat. Britain also was hit by missiles in Falklands War, so this is not out of ordinary in a way. Missiles are a serious threat.

And all their official sources just lie, can't trust a word.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2022 2:52 pm 
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Alexey Loginov wrote:
Probably a couple of Su-24s.

That's...not better. You do realize that's not better, right?

It's understandable and excusable how a ship using radars from the 1970s can miss low-flying cruise missiles flying at just a few metres above the waves, especially if its main missile guidance radar is turned the opposite way.

It's rather less excusable to miss the much larger and easier to detect Su-24 that have to fly well within S-300F range to drop whatever ordnance the Ukrainians have to attack the Moskva.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2022 3:46 pm 
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Timmy C wrote:
Alexey Loginov wrote:
Probably a couple of Su-24s.

That's...not better. You do realize that's not better, right?


Naturally, I understand.
It's always like this with us. Firstly, a frivolous attitude to the war, underestimation of the enemy, a desire to negotiate. Then we will fight to the death. Without pity for yourself or for the enemy. Forest type of civilization (mentality).


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2022 4:02 pm 
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Thanks Alexey, that is a useful clarification.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2022 8:32 pm 
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Meanwhile...

(and as usual the members of the press don't know the difference between a "battleship" and a "cruiser" ) :roll:

Daily Beast

Quote:
Russia Shows Off Crew of Sunken Moskva Warship—With Quite a Few Missing
Allison Quinn]
Sat, April 16, 2022, 2:33 p.m.

Russia’s Defense Ministry released a brief video on Saturday of the head of the Navy meeting with crew members of the sunken warship Moskva, as social media posts have surfaced that appear to confirm at least one death on board.

In a 26-second video—the first public appearance of the crew since Moscow admitted the country’s most powerful battleship had sunk—Admiral Nikolai Yevmenov is seen meeting with crew members in Sevastopol. About 100 sailors can be seen, although at least 500 were on board at the time the ship went down after Ukrainian officials said they successfully struck it with at least one Neptune missile.

Moscow, which admitted the ship had been “badly damaged” but blamed it on an explosion of ammunition on board, has claimed all crew members were rescued without providing any details on their whereabouts after the disaster.

Ukrainian authorities have said some of the crew of the ship that was famously told, “Go fudge yourself” by a Ukrainian serviceman did not survive.

At least one crew member appears to have been publicly mourned on the Russian networking site Odnoklassniki, according to a Saturday report by the Ukrainian service of Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty.
(...SNIPPED)

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2022 1:55 am 
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I assume that the difference between warship and battleship is not clear - which can be perhaps explained, because there are no battleships in service and battleships ceased to be a relevant ship type soon after World War 2, i.e. more than 70 years ago.

The fate of the crew is one the strange parts of the story. There are reports that a Turkish ship rescued part of the crew.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2022 4:57 am 
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maxim wrote:
I assume that the difference between warship and battleship is not clear - which can be perhaps explained, because there are no battleships in service and battleships ceased to be a relevant ship type soon after World War 2, i.e. more than 70 years ago.

Agreed. And not in all languages the difference between the two is very clear either. In English a 'Man o' War' is not a man in the first place, but a ship. :smallsmile: And as a 'war' is superlative to 'battle', a layman would understandably think a 'warship' is even superlative to 'battleship'. Logical, ey?

maxim wrote:
The fate of the crew is one the strange parts of the story. There are reports that a Turkish ship rescued part of the crew.

Also: why wasn't the crew able to keep the ship at least afloat? So, either the attack caught them completely unaware (we're not at war with Ukraine at all, aren't we?) and/or no damage control procedures in place or adhered to. And also no other or not sufficient other own units in the area that could come to the rescue. Seems in all aspects a very poor performance of the Russian navy which wasn't good in the first place. May I recall the accident with the Kursk some twenty years ago? Everyhting that could go wrong, did go wrong. The Russian weren't even able to savalge the ship by themselves-- the Dutch did for them.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2022 2:22 pm 
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16 apr 2002:

Today the commander of the "Saratov" amphibious assault ship of the #Russia'n Black Sea Fleet, Captain 2nd Rank Vladimir Khromchenkov, died in the hospital.

Ship was hit by Tochka-U missile strike in port of Berdyansk.

https://twitter.com/markito0171/status/ ... -1170.html

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mi56jaMyyNY

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2022 2:25 pm 
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Speaking to @novayagazeta_en, the mother of one of the Mosvka cruiser survivors says he told her that three (not two, as reported by Kyiv) Neptune missiles struck the ship, killing 40ish sailors and injuring a lot of people. Hundreds are still missing.

https://twitter.com/KevinRothrock/statu ... 0416756740

https://novayagazetaeu.substack.com/p/--29c?s=r

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2022 2:48 pm 
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Speaking to @novayagazeta_en , the mother of one of the survivors of the cruiser Mosvka said she told him that three Neptune missiles (not two, as reported by Kiev) hit the ship, killing about 40 sailors and injuring many. Hundreds are still missing.

https://twitter.com/KevinRothrock/statu ... 0416756740
[tweet]https://twitter.com/KevinRothrock/status/1515767590416756740[/tweet]

"There are many people injured. Mainly with severed limbs".
Sailors from sunken cruiser Moskva contact relatives and tell their stories" Novaya Gazeta. Europe" publishes one of them

Novaya Gazeta Europe
2 hours ago

Image

On 14 April, the Russian Defence Ministry said that the missile cruiser Moskva, the flagship of the Black Sea Fleet and one of the most legendary ships of the Russian Navy, had died during the war with Ukraine. According to the official version, the Moskva's ammunition exploded, after which the sailors were evacuated and the cruiser retained its buoyancy, but sank while being towed to Sevastopol. The Ukrainian side, on the other hand, claims that the Russian flagship was hit by Neptun missiles with a launch range of up to 280 km. In Sky News, "Moscow" and over 46,000,000 people.

The Russian media, including the official and staunchly pro-state media, have so far only mourned the loss of the flagship itself, while details of the dead sailors remain classified. The Defence Ministry first reported the "complete evacuation", then simply the "release" of the command, but did not even mention the news.

"Novaya Gazeta. Europe" spoke to the mother of a sailor who was enlisted in a Russian town shortly before the war in Ukraine began. We received documentary evidence of the naval conscription, which allows us to consider her story credible. However, the fact that the sailor was on board the Moskva at the time of the explosion cannot be confirmed under wartime conditions. Our heroine's son survived and contacted his mother on 15 April, the day after the loss of the S.S.

We quote the mother's monologue of the Black Sea Fleet sailor, without disclosing names for security reasons.

"My son said that the cruiser was hit from the land, from the Ukrainian side. The fire would not have happened like that. There are dead, injured, missing. My son called me when they were given their phones. They still have their documents and [personal] phones in the patrol car. He calls me and cries about what he saw. It was frightening. It's clear that not everyone survived. They tried to put out the fire with their own resources after the cruiser was hit by three Neptune missiles (Kiev says only two missiles hit it - editor's note). As a mother, I don't know what to say. I am just happy that my son called me and that he is alive and well.

I don't want to advertise it publicly because I would be putting my son at risk ( published by the author of this article - Ed. ). They signed a non-disclosure agreement before they got on the cruiser. You know what I mean too, I'm scared. It's very scary. It's scary, and I don't know how to wait for my son. He's got less than *** [the sailor's service record has been deleted for laundering reasons].

About forty men are dead. Several men missing. And a large number of wounded.

The wounded have mostly severed limbs, because there were these explosions - the two that detonated and the two that were hit by missiles.

When my son called me on the 15th, he was crying. He said, "Mom, I never thought in peacetime I would be in a taco. I won't even tell you in detail what I saw. It's so scary."

I don't know how to survive, how to wait for my son to finish his service, you... I'm like a mother... I just... It's just horrible. And the media, understandably, doesn't cover all the details. Why is that? Because the Ministry of Defense doesn't want to admit Ukraine's defeat. It doesn't want to admit that such a cruiser was sunk.

Earlier, journalists from Radio Liberty's Schemes investigative project found a post × Odnoklassniki devoted to the death of a 41-year-old midshipman, Ivan Vakhrushev. He had served in combat unit number five - that is, as an electrician.

His wife Varvara Vakhrusheva confirmed to the newspaper that the sailor died as a result of the explosion. According to her, she was informed of the serviceman's death on the afternoon of 14 April by the "commander". Ms Vakhrusheva also said that 27 crew members of the cruiser Moskva were missing.

Radio Liberty also draws attention to a post by user Dmitry Shkrebts on the VK social network.

The man says that his son Yegor Shkrebets, a serviceman, was reported missing after the sinking of the cruiser Moskva.

Image
Odnoklassniki post on the death of midshipman Ivan Vakhrushev. Screenshot


"My son, Yegor Dmitrievich Shkrebets, was drafted into the army of the city of Yalta on July 2, 2021. He was assigned to Sevastopol, and after the young fighter course he joined the flagship of the Black Sea Fleet, the "Black Sea Fleet Missile Commander". Joined as a "ship's cook", supply department.

Between 13.04 and 14.04, the event was resolved <...> This is a lie! A shameless and cynical lie! My NCO, as I learned from the direct commanders of the cruiser "Moscow", is not among the dead and wounded, and is missing. An enlisted man who was not supposed to take part in combat operations is missing," the man wrote.

Image
Yegor Shkrebets, missing conscript. Photo: social media

In December 2021, the Baltic Fleet newspaper The Guardian of the Baltic wrote ® the cook of the cruiser Moskva, Yegor Shkrebts, who had studied to be a cook in Yalta.

On 13 April, Ukrainian authorities said they had launched a strike with Neptun missiles against the missile cruiser Moskva, the flagship of the Russian Black Sea fleet. An adviser to the head of the Ukrainian presidential office, Oleksiy Arrestovich, said the Russian ship was covering the Kherson group with its troops.

In the morning, the Russian defence ministry confirmed the explosion on the cruiser, saying it was "due to a fire" that the ammunition exploded. The ministry said the Moskva "remains afloat" and that the keel was recovered by Black Sea Fleet vessels in the area.

On the evening of 14 April, the Russian Defence Ministry said that the cruiser Moskva had sunk. According to the ministry, this happened when the ship was being towed to its port of destination in stormy conditions, due to hull damage "during a fire caused by the detonation of ammunition". Russian authorities did not say whether anyone was killed in the incident.

According to the Russian president's press secretary, Dmitry Peskov, Vladimir Putin does not plan to hold a meeting on the sinking of the cruiser in the near future, and will not visit Sevastopol or other regions. It is the "prerogative of the military" to establish the causes of what happened to the Moskva,


On Friday, a ceremony was held in Sevastopol to say goodbye to the cruiser Moskva. A mourning wreath bearing the inscription "Ø to the sailors" was brought to the attention of BBC journalists.

Image
A wreath bearing the inscription "To the ship and sailors" during the farewell ceremony of the cruiser Moskva in Sevastopol on 15 April 2022. Photo: social media

16. Anton Kuprin, the commander of the cruiser, appears in the opening shots of the video. Earlier, Ukrainian media announced his death. In addition, the gpsu claimed that the Russian army did not evacuate the building after two Neptun missiles hit it.

The video also shows the navy's commander-in-chief, Nikolai Yevmenov, meeting the crew. He said that "the personnel of the cruiser 'Moscow' are at their main home base, the heroic city of Sevastopol", and that the hired personnel will be released between May and July.

However, as of 2017, the Russian Ministry of Defence decided to abandon the use of conscripts on ships, leaving them only for logistics, as "it would be problematic for a conscript who joined the army for only one year to manage complex electronic systems", reports Rossiyskaya Gazeta.

100-15 100-15

Among them are midshipmen and senior officers, however, a considerable part of them are Ordinaries with empty braces, probably enlisted men.
It is not known how many of them are actually part of the crew. Depending on the year, the crew of the cruiser "Moscow" numbered between 416 and 510 people. The Russian authorities do not explain why there are no other crew members in the ranks.

Image
The crew of the cruiser Moskva in Sevastopol. Screenshot from a video released by the Russian Ministry of Defence.

Moreover, the first part of the video of the Moskva formation is published without any sound. Presumably, the unit commanders are reporting on the number of men in and out of formation at that time.

"Novaya Gazeta.Europe

https://novayagazetaeu.substack.com/p/--29c?s=r

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novaya_Gazeta:

Novaya Gazeta (Russian: Новая газета, IPA: [ˈnovəjə ɡɐˈzʲetə], lit. 'New Gazette') is an independent Russian newspaper known for its critical and investigative coverage of Russian political and social affairs.[2][3] It is published in Moscow, in regions within Russia, and in some foreign countries. The print edition is published on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays; English-language articles on the website are published on a weekly basis in the form of the Russia, Explained newsletter.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2022 6:01 pm 
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https://twitter.com/BormanIke/status/15 ... 0393713665

Pictures of the Moskva before it sank.

A real bad weather!

Image

Image

Image

To give the scale:

Image

Image

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2022 6:49 pm 
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So, no storm, and just looks abandoned and sunk afterwards.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2022 10:48 pm 
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For all the media exposure about the Slava class cruiser Moskva, I am very surprised no one is discussing her sister ship Ukrainia, which had lain incomplete (95%) and untouched at the Ukrainian shipyard of the Mikolayiv for decades and was still untouched as of 2021. (pictured below)

There is even a 1/700 Trumpeter kit of the never-completed ship in Ukrainian Navy service, with the name "Vilna Ukrainia" : :heh:

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