A test of Getbigger's knowledge of the resistance curve: Single dumbbell lateral

[Thin Lizzy]

Always thought the kickback was useless and never did but was reading this the other day so maybe some use to it?

It seems like it should work but it doesn’t at least not for me.

[Humble Narcissist]

It seems like it should work but it doesn’t at least not for me.

Have you tried using it as a second exercise in a giant set for high reps?

[ThisisOverload]

I've done every variation possible for triceps, it made zero difference.

The best exercises i've found to build them are dips, seated behind the head extensions and cable press downs.

The way the tricep works, i do not believe you can target a specific area for "growth". Maybe it will be more sore, but  it seems to me it all works as a unit, just like your pecs and quads.

[ThisisOverload]

Yes, there are superior movements to the dumbbell laterals done in any style. But limiting the movement to just single arm dumbbell laterals with your right hand should you lean to your left or your right.

So i tested this today while doing shoulders and triceps.

To me, while doing a DB lateral raise with my right hand, leaning to the "right" gave a better feel and contraction.

Leaning to the left made it feel a little more difficult at the beginning, but didn't seem to hit the delt the same way.

Just my 2 CC's.

[The Scott]

I have to admit I don't really understand this one, Pellius my friend.   

[Thin Lizzy]

Have you tried using it as a second exercise in a giant set for high reps?

I keep it real simple these days. I do one tricep exercise following chest. Recently it’s been rope push downs. As I’ve said, the elbows don’t like the barbell and dumbbell extensions. I’ll probably go back to them trying  light weight 20 rep sets.

[IroNat]

I've done every variation possible for triceps, it made zero difference.

The best exercises i've found to build them are dips, seated behind the head extensions and cable press downs.

The way the tricep works, i do not believe you can target a specific area for "growth". Maybe it will be more sore, but  it seems to me it all works as a unit, just like your pecs and quads.

It's all bullsh*t.

[Thin Lizzy]

It's all bullsh*t.

For the most part. That said, I have noticed a greater pump in the lower part of the tris near  the elbow from this movement. That’s why I’d like to keep it in the rotation because that’s where you seem to lose tri muscle with age.

[IroNat]

For the most part. That said, I have noticed a greater pump in the lower part of the tris near  the elbow from this movement. That’s why I’d like to keep it in the rotation because that’s where you seem to lose tri muscle with age.

I shouldn't have said it's all bullsh*t.

There is a difference in different movements and some hit different heads better then others.

However, some movements like dips hit all three heads well so it's not a significant difference.

You could develop really good triceps just doing a pressing movement.

[pellius]

Looking at it from the standpoint of resistance, when the lever arm gets longer, the resistance gets greater. So, if you lean away from the side of the dumbbell there would be a shorter lever when your arm was perpendicular to your body.

To use a more extreme example, if you did the exercise while lying on your left side on the floor, there would be no resistance at perpendicular.

So, given a choice I would lean toward the side of the dumbbell.

With free weights, the resistance is only pointed straight downward. So when you stand upright with a dumbbell in your hand there is zero resistance on your side delt. As you start to raise your arm the resistance on your side delt starts to increase. The problem with that is that it is the opposite of your body's strength curve. You are strongest at the bottom part of the movement and much weaker when your arm is parallel to the ground. With a dumbbell, the resistance is at its lightest when you are in your strongest position and the resistance is at its greatest when you are in your weakest position.

Holding the dumbbell in your right hand as you start to lean to the left you start to increase the resistance in that bottom position. Taking it to the extreme if you lie on your left side comletely then all the resistance on your side delt is in the bottom position, your strongest, and no resistance at the top position. So, though not perfect, you have to play with the angle so that you can more optimally balance the resistance to your side delt. When you lean to your right, which I see most people do, you only make the situation worse.

This is what Arthur Jones tried to compensate for with his cam which stimulated variable resistance. In the case of his lateral machine the cam peaks, causing more resistance, at the bottom of the movement, then start to tamper off, gets "lighter" as you progress through the movement.
Another example is with squatting-type movements. You are weakest at the bottom, full squat position getting stronger, or more precisely in a more advantageous strength curve, as you start to extend and push through.

This is important because it's similar to the saying, "a chain is only as strong as its weakest link". Because your joint moves in a circular pattern and free weights are not rotary but only presents a straight downward resistance, you are only able to handle a resistance that you can handle when you are at your weakest. That's why you see so many people using literally tons of weight on the 45 degree leg press but you know that if they broke a 15 degree angle the weight would collapse on them.

That's where force reps and partials come into play. For instance, after doing a leg pressing movement, say, on the Hammer machine, after failure, I immediately position the set back so that my legs will only bend at about 20 degrees and increase the weight considerably and bang out those partials when your legs are in its strongest position.

[pellius]

I only do lateral raises for the delts directly, no more excercises at all, the delts get enough doing bench press, I do zero overhead pressing

How about rear delts or do you feel it is covered by rowing movements?

[pellius]

Gravity only pulls in one direction, down.

 The reason some use more than one exercise per body part is because some are good at the near contracted position. Some are best at mid range. Some are best at stretch. 

This is where some Nautilus fan chimes in that's why the machines are so great because they hit all the positions unlike many conventional free weight exercises. Sitting in machines is not training athletically.

Bravo! Move to the head of the class.

[pellius]

If the dumbbell is in the right hand, I consider leaning to the left better because there is less resistance at the top of the movement where the muscle is weakest position-wise, allowing for better form. There's also more tension at the bottom of the movement.

Another who actually thinks things through.

[pellius]

Tricep kickbacks are effective.

Are they as effective as some other exercises?  No.

If you have minimal equipment (barbells and dumbbells only) then you have more limited exercise choice.

Compare tricep kickback to seated one arm dumbbell tricep extension or one arm lying dumbbell tricep extension.  Pretty similar.

Tricep cable pushdowns are basically the same movement as kickbacks.







How about a cable kickback?

Absolutely, Positively, NOT! Look at the picture you posted. Draw a line always pointing down to where the position of the dumbbell is when doing the movement. In the beginning of the kick-back position, there is zero resistance on your tricep. It is the muscles in your back that are being contracted to maintain the position. That's the finished position when doing the dumbbells rows and nobody thinks that works the triceps. And you can use only a very lightweight to do the movement properly and only really stress the tricep in the contracted position. People do it because they say they really "feel it", the guiding principle of the spoiled moron, Bhanks. But you really "feel" all muscles by forcibly contracting it even without weights. I remember cramping my bicep by really squeezing it in the contracted position just doing a bicep pose. Nobody believes, except Bhanks, that this will developed the size and strength of the muscle.

With the overhead tricep extension, assuming you don't fully lock out, tension, though not perfect, provides resistance throughout the full range of motion. This is an excellent tricep movement if limited to just free weights.

[pellius]

Tricep kickbacks are effective.

Are they as effective as some other exercises?  No.

If you have minimal equipment (barbells and dumbbells only) then you have more limited exercise choice.

Compare tricep kickback to seated one arm dumbbell tricep extension or one arm lying dumbbell tricep extension.  Pretty similar.

Tricep cable pushdowns are basically the same movement as kickbacks.







How about a cable kickback?

Addendum: I missed the last pic with cable. Now if you do it with cables it is far better as there is resistance through the movement. Cable are much more effective at following the circular pattern of your joints. Also, the one lying of the bench is good too but better if your elbows are position a bit further back.

[Marty Champions]

Pellius u stupid fuck lie down on the floor on your back now take the two dumbells reaching the opposing sholder thank me later fagget

[pellius]

I think it's impossible to say but you could speculate that movemenys that stress the lengthened position of a muscle are better for hypertrophy, as that's what the research seems  to indicate. So that would be leaning to the left here. I'm always tinkering around with  different variations of movements and then I remember it doesn't really seem to matter in the big picture 

But logically, as some have said here, use movements that stress all lengths of the muscle. Like leg extentions should complement other leg exercises as no others stress the fully shortened position.

I saw many hate on one arm db laterals. I think these are the among the best movements for overloading the delts.


That was my thinking too. You can load the start harder with cables by having pulley at hand height.

It is possible to say, and you just said it.

[Marty Champions]

Fucking idiot do the exercise above

[pellius]

Always thought the kickback was useless and never did but was reading this the other day so maybe some use to it?

I read a similar study, too. They measure at the contracted position which is at it's greatest when your arm is fully extended. More so than any other free weight tricep movement. Problem is that there is zero tension in the beginning. Many believe, and there are studies to back it up, that it is getting that stretch that is causing the muscle damage and consequently, muscle hypertrophy. That may explain why bbers get good results using such sloppy form. Look at Ronnie as he throws up the weight doing t-bar rows. Tremendous stress and resistance at the bottom of the movement and then very little contraction as momentum takes over.

[pellius]

Nonsense. Your whole muscles contracts when you extend your elbows. Just as idiotic when people say the toes out for inner calf and toes out for outer.

[pellius]

Have you tried using it as a second exercise in a giant set for high reps?

And if he did he would experience a very extreme pump. But that would apply to any exercise he did that provided resistance in the fully contracted position, like, say, cable pushdowns using a rope where you can really pull back and get a good contraction. The bonus is that you are getting resistance throughout the entire range.

[Marty Champions]

Pellius you are a dumb mother fucker especially at your age concerned with the non spiritual

[bhank]

Absolutely, Positively, NOT! Look at the picture you posted. Draw a line always pointing down to where the position of the dumbbell is when doing the movement. In the beginning of the kick-back position, there is zero resistance on your tricep. It is the muscles in your back that are being contracted to maintain the position. That's the finished position when doing the dumbbells rows and nobody thinks that works the triceps. And you can use only a very lightweight to do the movement properly and only really stress the tricep in the contracted position. People do it because they say they really "feel it", the guiding principle of the spoiled moron, Bhanks. But you really "feel" all muscles by forcibly contracting it even without weights. I remember cramping my bicep by really squeezing it in the contracted position just doing a bicep pose. Nobody believes, except Bhanks, that this will developed the size and strength of the muscle.

With the overhead tricep extension, assuming you don't fully lock out, tension, though not perfect, provides resistance throughout the full range of motion. This is an excellent tricep movement if limited to just free weights.

Obviously tricep kickbacks are not your power movement for growth just like side laterals are not for delts. Both these movements are finishing movements to get the pump contraction not your power growth movements neither should be done heavy anyway as you just need light weight to squeeze at the end of the movement neither is supposed to be a heavy power growth movement. These are both finishers not solo exercises

[Marty Champions]

Pellius u stupid fuck lie down on the floor on your back now take the two dumbells reaching the opposing sholder thank me later fagget

Do this

[pellius]

I've done every variation possible for triceps, it made zero difference.

The best exercises i've found to build them are dips, seated behind the head extensions and cable press downs.

The way the tricep works, i do not believe you can target a specific area for "growth". Maybe it will be more sore, but  it seems to me it all works as a unit, just like your pecs and quads.

I like the way you think. Using dips for triceps it does make a difference in how you position your torso so that you stress the tricep more than the front delts and chest. Arthur Jones once said that you can train and develop your entire upper torso with just a dipping and pullup bar. I wish I could do dips but I have a detached rotator cuff.