One of the best mathematicians and code
breakers in NSA history resigned in 2001 because he no longer wanted to
be associated with alleged violations of the constitution.
He asserts, that the FBI has access to this data due to a powerful device Naris.
This
year Binney received the Callaway award. The annual award was
established to recognize those, who stand out for constitutional rights
and American values at great risk to their personal or professional
lives.
RT: In light of the Petraeus/Allen
scandal while the public is so focused on the details of their family
drama one may argue that the real scandal in this whole story is the
power, the reach of the surveillance state. I mean if we take General
Allen – thousands of his personal e-mails have been sifted through
private correspondence. It’s not like any of those men was planning an
attack on America. Does the scandal prove the notion that there is no
such thing as privacy in a surveillance state?
William Binney:
Yes, that’s what I’ve been basically saying for quite some time, is
that the FBI has access to the data collected, which is basically the
e-mails of virtually everybody in the country. And the FBI has access to
it. All the congressional members are on the surveillance too, no one
is excluded. They are all included. So, yes, this can happen to anyone.
If they become a target for whatever reason – they are targeted by the
government, the government can go in, or the FBI, or other agencies of
the government, they can go into their database, pull all that data
collected on them over the years, and we analyze it all. So, we have to
actively analyze everything they’ve done for the last 10 years at least.
RT:
And it’s not just about those, who could be planning, who could be a
threat to national security, but also those, who could be just…
WB:
It’s everybody. The Naris device if it takes in the entire line, so it
takes in all the data. In fact they advertised they can process the
lines at session rates, which means 10 gigabit lines. I forgot the name
of the device (it’s not the Naris) – the other one does it at 10
gigabits. That’s why the building Buffdale, because they have to have
more storage, because they can’t figure out what’s important, so they
are just storing everything there. So, e-mails are going to be stored
there for the future, but right now stored in different places around
the country. But it is being collected – and the FBI has access to it.
RT: You mean it’s being collected in bulk without even requesting providers?
WB:Yes.
RT:
Then what about Google, you know, releasing this biannual transparency
report and saying that the government’s demands for personal data is at
an all-time high and for all of those requesting the US, Google says
they complied with the government’s demands 90% of the time. But they
are still saying that they are making the request, it’s not like it’s
all being funneled into that storage. What do you say to that?
WB:
I would assume, that it’s just simply another source for the same data
they are already collecting. My line is in declarations in a court about
the 18-T facility in San Francisco, that documented the NSA room inside
that AST&T facility, where they had Naris devices to collect data
off the fiber optic lines inside the United States. So, that’s kind of a
powerful device, that would collect everything it was being sent. It
could collect on the order over one hundred billion one thousand
character e-mails a day. One device.
RT: You say they sift through billions of e-mails. I wonder how do they prioritize? How do they filter it?
WB:
I don’t think they are filtering it. They are just storing it. I think
it’s just a matter of selecting when they want it. So, if they want to
target you, they would take your attributes, go into that database and
pull out all your data.
RT: Were you on the target list?
WB:
Oh, sure! I believe I’ve been on it for quite a few years. So I keep
telling them everything I think of them in my e-mail. So that when they
want to read it they’ll understand what I think of them.
RT: Do you think we all should leave messages for the NSA mail box?
WB: Sure!
RT:
You blew the whistle on the agency when George W. Bush was the
President. With President Obama in office, in your opinion, has anything
changed at the agency – in the surveillance program? In what direction
is this administration moving?
WB: The
change is it’s getting worse. They are doing more. He is supporting the
building of the Buffdale facility, which is over two billion dollars
they are spending on storage room for data. That means that they are
collecting a lot more now and need more storage for it. That facility by
my calculations that I submitted to the court for the electronic
frontiers foundation against NSA would hold on the order of 5 zettabytes
of data. Just that current storage capacity is being advertised on the
web that you can buy. And that’s not talking about what they have in the
near future.
RT: What are they going to do with all of that? Ok, they are storing something. Why should anybody be concerned?
WB:
If you ever get on the enemies list, like Petraeus did or… for whatever
reason, than you can be drained into that surveillance.
RT: Do you think they would… General Petraeus, who was idolized by the same administration? Or General Allen?
WB:
There are certainly some questions, that have to be asked, like why
would they target it (to begin with)? What law were they breaking?
RT:In
case of General Petraeus one would argue that there could have been
security breaches. Something like that. But with General Allen – I
don’t quite understand, because when they were looking into his private
e-mails to this woman.
WB: That’s the whole
point. I am not sure what the internal politics is… That’s part of the
program. This government doesn’t want things in the public. It’s not a
transparent government. Whatever the reason or the motivation was, I
don’t really know, but I certainly think, that there was something going
on in the background, that made them target those fellows. Otherwise
why would they be doing it? There is no crime there.
RT:
It seems that the public is divided between those, who think that the
government surveillance program violates their civil liberties, and
those, who say: “I’ve nothing to hide. So, why should I care?” What do
you say to those, who think that it shouldnt concern them.
WB:
The problem is if they think they are not doing anything that’s wrong,
they don’t get to define that. The central government does, the central
government defines what is right and wrong and whether or not they
target you. So, it’s not up to the individuals. Even if they think they
are doing something wrong, if their position on something is against
what the administration has, then they could easily become a target.
RT: Tell me about the most outrageous thing that you came across during your work at the NSA.
WB:
The violations of the constitution and any number of laws that existed
at the time. That was the part that I could not be associated with.
That’s why I left. They were building social networks on who is
communicating and with whom inside this country. So that the entire
social network of everybody, of every US citizen was being compiled
overtime. So, they are taking from one company alone roughly 320 million
records a day. That’s probably accumulated probably close to 20
trillion over the years. The original program that we put together to
handle this to be able to identify terrorists anywhere in the world and
alert anyone that they were in jeopardy. We would have been able to do
that by encrypting everybody’s communications except those, who were
targets. So, in essence you would protect their identities and the
information about them until you could develop probable cause, and once
you showed your probable cause, then you could do a decrypt and target
them. And we could do that and isolate those people all alone. It wasn’t
a problem at all. There was no difficulty in that.
RT: It sounds very difficult and very complicated. Easier to take everything in and…
WB:
No. It’s easier to use the graphing techniques, if you will, for the
relationships for the world to filter out data, so that you don’t have
to handle all that data. And it doesn’t burden you with a lot more
information to look at, than you really need to solve the problem.
RT: Do you think that the agency doesn’t have the filters now?
WB: No.
RT:
You have received the Callaway award for civic courage.
Congratulations! On the website and in the press release it says: “It is
awarded to those, who stand out for constitutional rights and American
values at great risk to their personal or professional lives.” Under the
code of spy ethics (I don’t know if there is such a thing) your former
colleagues, they probably look upon you as a traitor. How do you look
back at them?
WB: That’s pretty easy. They
are violating the foundation of this entire country. Why this entire
government was formed? It’s founded with the constitution and the rights
were given to the people in the country under that constitution. They
are in violation of that. And under executive order 13526, section 1.7
(governing classification) – you can not classify information to just
cover up a crime, which this is- and that was signed by President Obama.
Also President Bush signed it earlier executive order, a very similar
one. If any of this comes into Supreme court and they rule it
unconstitutional, then the entire house of cards of the government
falls.
RT: What are the chances of that? What are the odds?
WB:
The government is doing the best they can to try to keep it out of
court. And, of course, we are trying to do the best we can to get into
court. So, we decided it deserves a ruling from the Supreme court.
Ultimately the court is supposed to protect the constitution. All these
people in the government take an oath to defend the constitution. And
they are not living up to the oath of office.
RT: Thank you for this interview.
WB: You are welcome.
RT