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Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>: May 30 10:36AM -0700 On Thu, 30 May 2019 05:59:08 -0700 (PDT), Tim R <timothy42b@aol.com> wrote:   >It's probably worse than with CFLs because of the concentrated area >where the heat is produced, right?   Maybe. LED's are certainly more efficient. Lumens/watt LED 100 CFL 60 Incandescent 16 For equal amounts of light output (lumens), a CFL lamp takes 1.7 times as much power to produce that light as does an LED. That's a big difference, but not as spectacular as the 6.3 times jump from incandescent to LED.   You're concerned about "heat" with measured in Joules where 1 joule = 1 watt/second What I think you want is the final operating temperature of the device to make sure that it doesn't melt plastic, degrade the LED's, destroy electronic components, or set fire to the vicinity. The final temperature has many parameters, most of which are NOT the same for LED and CFL. For radiation loss, the surface area of a CFL lamp is larger than the equivalent LED, and is therefore a more efficient heat radiator. While the LED might waste fewer watts than the CFL light heating up the room, the CFL will remove the heat from the lamp more efficiently because it has a larger surface area. The LED compensates for its smaller size by using aluminum heat sinks, while the CFL has a larger thermal mass by using ceramics. Lots of other differences making a general conclusion rather difficult.   >What isn't obvious to me, having looked at the internals, is why the >orientation would have more than a trivial effect. That heat looks >pretty trapped no matter where the base faces.   Also maybe. The various lamps will move heat using conduction, radiation, and convection. All three mechanisms are involved in determining the final temperature of a lamp. In a light fixture, the ability of move air through the fixture to remove the heat via convective air currents is restricted. Without air flow the temperature of the lamp will rise. If the air flow is uneven, there will be hot spots on the lamp surface. Some lamps are more tolerant to heating than others. My plastic case MR16 LED lamp was probably the least tolerant. High temperature halogen incandescent lamps are quite happy at much higher temperatures. LEDs lose half their light output going from room temp (25C) to operating temperature (100C) <https://www.lrc.rpi.edu/programs/nlpip/lightinganswers/led/heat.asp> which is why LED heat sinks are much better and larger than CFL which can tolerate higher temperatures.     -- Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Tim R <timothy42b@aol.com>: May 30 12:51PM -0700 On Thursday, May 30, 2019 at 1:36:48 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote: > Incandescent 16 > For equal amounts of light output (lumens), a CFL lamp takes 1.7 times > as much power to produce that light as does an LED. That's a big   I doubt that's true. Flash power, the first 3 seconds of operation for an LED, might be 100 lumens per watt, but I think 60 is more realistic.   > radiator. While the LED might waste fewer watts than the CFL light > heating up the room, the CFL will remove the heat from the lamp more > efficiently because it has a larger surface area. The LED compensates   I'm not sure that's the case. Surface area makes a difference for both radiation and convection, but the temperature difference is what really drives the heat transfer. The plastic globe area of an LED equivalent lamp runs much hotter than the curlicues of a CFL. (I haven't measured, but that's what my fingers tell me when changing both while hot.) (and that's probably because an LED doesn't have vacuum inside the globe, it has air that's in contact with the emitters)   I don't think the majority of the heat dissipation from a CFL is from the curlicues. But if even a portion is, then the orientation will make no difference. Air will flow through them base up or down about the same.

tabbypurr@gmail.com: May 31 03:41AM -0700 On Thursday, 30 May 2019 18:36:48 UTC+1, Jeff Liebermann wrote:   > <https://www.lrc.rpi.edu/programs/nlpip/lightinganswers/led/heat.asp> > which is why LED heat sinks are much better and larger than CFL which > can tolerate higher temperatures.     Heat radiation is not significant at LED operating temp. Ditto for most of a CFL, but the end filaments do run hot.   All heat produced by both does get dissipated, it can't be trapped else the thing would get endlessly hotter & self destruct.   Why does orientation matter? With a 20w CFL, the ballast silicon is vulnerable to high temps. Ballast down it gets cool air flowing slowly upward past it. Ballast up it gets hot air past it, reducing life expectancy. The tube OTOH doesn't care either way.     NT

"pfjw@aol.com" <peterwieck33@gmail.com>: May 31 05:11AM -0700 The Dubai Lamp range is comprised of four LED bulbs, each of which is available in "cool daylight" and "warm white" colors. There's a 1-W, 200-lm E14 candle bulb, 400-lm E27 classic bulb and a 600-lm E27 classic bulb. Philips says it designed the filament LED bulbs to replace 25-W, 40-W, and 60-W incandescent bulbs, respectively. The bulbs run off Dubai's 220-240-V mains voltage.   The above article is from very nearly two years ago. 150 - 175 l/W lamps are common in the commercial market, and readily available in to consumers with a just a bit of effort. A bit more costly, perhaps - but if one is in a region where the Utility is subsidizing prices, you may not notice.   That Home Depot or whatever passes for a Big-Box store at whatever location will not be selling either the latest, nor certainly not cutting-edge technology. They WILL be selling whatever may be mass-produced at the lowest cost with the highest margins.   Most of the discussions here are based on assumptions that are - at least - three years out of date.   Suffice it to understand:   LED Lamp drivers get HOT. These are drivers, not ballasts. The amount of heat generated is in direct proportion to the amount of light generated as function of emitting surface. Linear emitters   https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41yQl0egsTL.jpg   spread the emitter heat out, and allow (relatively) tiny drivers making not-much heat. Most of these lamps are also "universal" inasmuch as they may be run in any position. And, their lumens-per-watt is not massive, either.   Point-source emitters such as the CREE XHP35 will make up to 706 lumens at 350 ma. - which translates to 183 lumens per watt. Really. And that was introduced in 2018, and is commonly found in your MagLite, if you want a "real world" application. It runs at 150C at the junction - which is tiny, so that heat is easily managed. And as it is a direct DC device, there is no separate driver in a flashlight application. In a lamp application, that driver gets quite complex as that same emitter may run anywhere from 5500K with a CRI of 50 to 2700K with a CRI of 90.   The technology is still evolving. And it is NOT where it was even a year ago.   Tabby, for the record, you give us all a deeper understanding of the term "invincible ignorance". Thank you for that!   Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA

bitrex <user@example.net>: May 30 04:07PM -0400 A guy on social media (natch) who had a faulty Korg Oasys ($8000 synthesizer) trying to DIY repair the switching power supply, and posted photos of himself having extracted the fucking primary-side PFC boost filter cap, 470uF 450 volts, having convinced himself this was the faulty part because it didn't read exactly 470uF on a DMM.

Ralph Mowery <rmowery28146@earthlink.net>: May 30 05:54PM -0400 In article <cKWHE.23924$S33.19384@fx14.iad>, user@example.net says... > photos of himself having extracted the fucking primary-side PFC boost > filter cap, 470uF 450 volts, having convinced himself this was the > faulty part because it didn't read exactly 470uF on a DMM.   Wait for him to find a new one that measures exectally 470 uF.   Almost no component will measure exectally what it is labled. You just have to know with in reason how far you can go in the circuit and it still functions like it should.   Chances are he could use 2 different meters and they would show up different.

bitrex <user@example.net>: May 30 07:17PM -0400 On 5/30/19 5:54 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote: > still functions like it should.   > Chances are he could use 2 different meters and they would show up > different.   He said it read 440uF. on a cheap DMM capacitance function not tested anywhere near the voltage it's normally operated at I expect it's fine.   He thought it was the 12 volt bus filter capacitor, too, and not the kind of cap that can store enough energy to kill someone that it is. I figure it's usually worth at least an attempt to save that guy from himself but they tend to double down "well see. already ordered the part bro. don't tell me this Mom-stuff"   Anyway many Americans like this one also believe the government is out to get them..yeah well maybe it is maybe it isn't but sanity starts at home

John-Del <ohger1s@gmail.com>: May 30 04:51PM -0700 On Thursday, May 30, 2019 at 4:07:40 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote: > photos of himself having extracted the fucking primary-side PFC boost > filter cap, 470uF 450 volts, having convinced himself this was the > faulty part because it didn't read exactly 470uF on a DMM.   Look, everyone on the internet says it's "capacitors", so it's gotta be true. Why are you doubting him.   As an aside, if there's one value of cap that always seem to read low value either after being in service for a while or new replacements, it's the 470uf - regardless of voltage.

John Robertson <spam@flippers.com>: May 30 05:21PM -0700 On 2019/05/30 1:07 p.m., bitrex wrote: > photos of himself having extracted the fucking primary-side PFC boost > filter cap, 470uF 450 volts, having convinced himself this was the > faulty part because it didn't read exactly 470uF on a DMM.   And the technician who finally is called in to fix this will have to deal with all sorts of the cheap owner's crappy work including broken traces, ripped out feed through holes...   John :-#(#

Rheilly Phoull <rheilly@bigslong.com>: May 31 05:02PM +0800 On 31/05/2019 4:07 am, bitrex wrote: > photos of himself having extracted the fucking primary-side PFC boost > filter cap, 470uF 450 volts, having convinced himself this was the > faulty part because it didn't read exactly 470uF on a DMM.   Just let the Darwin effect take it's course.

Kasem A <kasemalshami@gmail.com>: May 30 04:02PM -0700 YouTube videos of     U.S. Congress money laundering hearing     of   Saudi Billionaire " Maan Al sanea"   with bank of America     and The owner of Saad Hospital and Schools   in the Eastern Province in Saudi Arabia     and the Chairman of the Board of Directors of Awal Bank in Bahrain     With Arabic Subtitles       موقع اليوتيوب الذي عرض جلسة استماع الكونجرس الأمريكي   لمتابعة نشاطات غسل الأموال ونشاطات     السعودي معن عبدالواحد الصانع     مالك مستشفى وشركة سعد ومدارس سعد بالمنطقة الشرقية بالسعودية ورئيس مجلس ادارة بنك اوال البحريني     مترجم باللغة العربية     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIBNnQvhU8s

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tabbypurr@gmail.com: May 29 03:04PM -0700 > Is GB really that far behind the rest of the world? Or is it just you?   > Peter Wieck > Melrose Park, PA   I'm just letting you know what's in the shops. Really I don't know what your problem is. And am not interested.     NT

Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>: May 29 08:36PM -0700 On Wed, 29 May 2019 05:57:33 -0700 (PDT), Tim R <timothy42b@aol.com> wrote:   >Any heat source generates convection air flow, as long as the fixture isn't enclosed.   Yeah, that's a problem with all lighting. Most fixtures (luminaires) are enclosed.   Here's an example of a melted MR16 5watt 12v LED lamp: <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/LED/MR16-LED-melted-01.jpg> The lamp is the upper right is the way the lamp looked when new. The wrinkled looking lamps are what happened when they were run in a badly ventilated light fixture. Notice how much the plastic has shrunk when over-heated. The PCB in the lower left is the back of a 60 LED array and consists of 10ea 82ohm(?) resistors and a diode bridge. I haven't bothered to decode how the LEDs are wired.   <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/LED/MR16-LED-melted-02.jpg> The LED front view is in the upper right. The lamp in the upper left in an MR16 incandescent light. It's made of an aluminized glass reflector, aluminum frame, and ceramic base. I think it's rated at 20 watts. All were mounted with the base facing upwards.   I couldn't find the original listing, but I think it's the 60 LED (5 watts) version of this light: <https://www.ebay.com/itm/GU10-MR16-E26-E27-LED-Spotlight-Bulb-2835-SMD-4W-5W-6W-Lamp-Bright-110V-220V-12V/123255156639>   What happened was that I replaced about 20 incandescent MR16 lights on some overhead track lighting. The light fixtures were miserably ventilated and were killing 20w incandescent lamps at an alarming rate. Replacing them with LED's was suppose to reduce the heat load. Instead, it melted the plastic case instead of blowing the filament. Burning down the house was averted because the house was full of hot plastic smell and the smoke alarm was screaming. Oops.   Moral: The plastic materials used in most LED's are not as heat resistant as the glass and ceramic materials used in incandescent and CFL lighting.   -- Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Tim R <timothy42b@aol.com>: May 30 05:59AM -0700 On Wednesday, May 29, 2019 at 11:36:07 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote: > Moral: The plastic materials used in most LED's are not as heat > resistant as the glass and ceramic materials used in incandescent and > CFL lighting.   Thanks. There's some good info there. Now having looked at the guts of a number of LED lamps I can see where heat dissipation is more of a problem than I realized.   It's probably worse than with CFLs because of the concentrated area where the heat is produced, right?   What isn't obvious to me, having looked at the internals, is why the orientation would have more than a trivial effect. That heat looks pretty trapped no matter where the base faces.

"Arlen G. Holder" <arlingholder@nospam.net>: May 29 03:38PM On Wed, 29 May 2019 06:12:57 -0500, Foxs Mercantile wrote:   > Too busy masturbating listening to yourself spout meaningless bullshit?   Is your's the response of an adult, Snit?

John-Del <ohger1s@gmail.com>: May 29 01:39PM -0700 On Wednesday, May 29, 2019 at 11:38:05 AM UTC-4, Arlen G. Holder wrote: > On Wed, 29 May 2019 06:12:57 -0500, Foxs Mercantile wrote:   > > Too busy masturbating listening to yourself spout meaningless bullshit?   > Is your's the response of an adult, Snit?     Gosh, if everyone who knows you masturbate while listening to your own meaningless bullshit is a snit, then the web is full of snits.   John Snit

"Arlen G. Holder" <arlingholder@nospam.net>: May 30 06:30AM On Wed, 29 May 2019 13:39:12 -0700 (PDT), John-Del wrote:   > Gosh, if everyone who knows you masturbate while listening to your own meaningless bullshit is a snit, then the web is full of snits.   What's amazing is that you, John Del, and Snit, _always_ prove to own the mind of a mere child.   I don't even need to prove that since you prove it by what you write. o Just watch.

Foxs Mercantile <jdangus@att.net>: May 30 07:50AM -0500 On 5/30/2019 1:30 AM, Arlen G. Holder wrote: > I don't even need to prove that since you prove it by what you write. > o Just watch.   You are just another self important bump in the noise floor. Convinced of your own worth.   You aren't worth a shit, a you prove it every time you rise to bait. And you own insecurity makes you do it every fucking time.   You're pathetic. You honestly believe calling me Snit is going to make anyone think you have anything worthwhile to say?   Go fuck yourself.     -- Jeff-1.0 wa6fwi http://www.foxsmercantile.com   --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com

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"pfjw@aol.com" <peterwieck33@gmail.com>: May 28 12:23PM -0700 Some basics:   a) ALL LED lamps should be used base-down unless otherwise marked. Yes, there are LED lamps designed for horizontal, vertical, base-up and base-down applications. But if UNMARKED, base-down only. b) The driver (what is in the base) emits heat. Approximately 80% of all the heat generated by the lamp. The other 20% is spread throughout the emitters and in terms of 'feel' will be negligible. c) Keep in mind that an LED lamp, on average, makes about 150 - 200 lumens per watt. Let's use 200 for this discussion. d) This lamp will make very roughly 6,400 lumens, and about 26 watts in heat at the base. Note that the 10,000 lumens advertised is what is known in the industry as "Flash" lumens - the first 3 seconds that power is applied to the LEDs for the first time - and then only. e) A typical incandescent lamp produces about 17 lumens per watt these days. But heat is emitted across the entire envelope, not concentrated in the base as with CFL or LED lamps. f) Hence, ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, and children of all ages - BASE DOWN unless marked otherwise. AND!!! the lamp base rating should be observed as compared to actual light delivered. g) Meaning - if a base is rated for "60 watts", an ~1.100-lumen lamp should be pretty much the limit of what is installed in it, whether incandescent, CFL or LED.   Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA

"pfjw@aol.com" <peterwieck33@gmail.com>: May 28 12:35PM -0700 > If you're growing at home, the green is nearly all wasted as little gets absorbed. It therefore doesn't make sense to produce it - subject to an assortment of conditions, eg if you want white light for other reasons.   LED lamps these days may be controlled for spectrum to a remarkably fine degree. I work in, but not for, a hospital, and we, as the landlord are relamping approximately 1,000,000 s.f. of space including everything from ORs through research labs to animal, bacterial and plant facilities. You may bet, very safely, that in many of the labs and procedure rooms, CRI, Kelvin and Color are critical at many levels.   Yet, we are using perhaps two different basic lamps throughout with CRI, Kelvin & Color being controlled primarily via the drivers, not the emitters. Not the Kelvin and Color are very nearly, but not quite the same thing - and the critical parameter is CRI (Color Rendering Index).   Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA

John-Del <ohger1s@gmail.com>: May 28 12:49PM -0700 On Monday, May 27, 2019 at 8:14:10 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:     > At the time, the authorities were monitoring household electric bills. > Any sudden and stable rise in consumption implied that the household > was using artificial lighting to grow something.   And sometimes you can discover the same with just some basic observational skills:   https://secure.i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03194/haarlem2_3194129b.jpg

tabbypurr@gmail.com: May 28 02:02PM -0700 > Some basics:   > a) ALL LED lamps should be used base-down unless otherwise marked. Yes, there are LED lamps designed for horizontal, vertical, base-up and base-down applications. But if UNMARKED, base-down only.   that [partially] applies to the higher power lamps only. 3w reflector lamps are good in any position, and are of course mostly used facing downward. Partially means lamp life is affected, but it still works.   > b) The driver (what is in the base) emits heat. Approximately 80% of all the heat generated by the lamp. The other 20% is spread throughout the emitters and in terms of 'feel' will be negligible.   No. The LEDs are the load, the driver is somewhere vaguely in the 90% region of efficiency, therefore the LEDs emit around 10x as much heat as the driver. Some lamps couple the LED heat to the base as a way to get some more heat out, a lot don't. Your belief would require 25% efficient SMPSUs! Even a crude 1 transistor smpsu using a screw for an inductor core can beat that.   > c) Keep in mind that an LED lamp, on average, makes about 150 - 200 lumens per watt. Let's use 200 for this discussion.   15w for 1500 lumens is currently typical for domestic lamps, or 100lpw.   > g) Meaning - if a base is rated for "60 watts", an ~1.100-lumen lamp should be pretty much the limit of what is installed in it, whether incandescent, CFL or LED.   > Peter Wieck > Melrose Park, PA   What in your opinion is the problem with a 100w equivalent 15w LED in an open ventilated 20w rated lampholder?     NT

tabbypurr@gmail.com: May 28 02:06PM -0700 > LED lamps these days may be controlled for spectrum to a remarkably fine degree. I work in, but not for, a hospital, and we, as the landlord are relamping approximately 1,000,000 s.f. of space including everything from ORs through research labs to animal, bacterial and plant facilities. You may bet, very safely, that in many of the labs and procedure rooms, CRI, Kelvin and Color are critical at many levels.   > Yet, we are using perhaps two different basic lamps throughout with CRI, Kelvin & Color being controlled primarily via the drivers, not the emitters.   that is confused. CCT is determined by the emitters, of which those lamps have at least 2 of different CCT, or 3 R G & B. Adjusting the PSU determines which gets how much current, thus determining final CCT. It does not of course determine the CCT of each separate LED emitter, those are fixed by the LEDs themselves.     NT

"pfjw@aol.com" <peterwieck33@gmail.com>: May 29 04:00AM -0700 Tabby:   You are about 3 years behind the times with LEDs. Suffice it that that is an eternity in the lighting business. And about covers your very nearly complete ignorance of what is in the market today.   Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA

Tim R <timothy42b@aol.com>: May 29 05:17AM -0700 My yard light and my porch light are base down.   Every other lamp in my house is base up. I would think that is true for many people, probably most.   I have only a couple of incandescents left, most were converted to CFL and then as CFL got harder to find and LED cheaper, to LED.   If it's true these should not be mounted base up, then manufacturers have been way overselling the benefits. In particular the supposed longer life of the more expensive bulb does not really exist, if it's only true base down.

"pfjw@aol.com" <peterwieck33@gmail.com>: May 29 05:46AM -0700 On Wednesday, May 29, 2019 at 8:17:28 AM UTC-4, Tim R wrote:   > Every other lamp in my house is base up. I would think that is true for many people, probably most.   > I have only a couple of incandescents left, most were converted to CFL and then as CFL got harder to find and LED cheaper, to LED.   > If it's true these should not be mounted base up, then manufacturers have been way overselling the benefits. In particular the supposed longer life of the more expensive bulb does not really exist, if it's only true base down.   Note that lamps designed for base-up applications such as spots and PARs are designed for base-up applications.   Otherwise, look carefully on the packaging for standard Edison-Base lamps. Most will either have an icon indicating base position(s) or some verbiage to that end. Those that do not are designed for base-down installation. Please also note that this goes all the way back to incandescent lamps, with early 3-way lamps marked for base position.   https://eyehortilux.com/grower-education/hid-lights/lamp-operating-positions/   Is one example specifically applicable to HID lamps.   Putting a lamp out of position is not immediately fatal, but it will shorten the life of the lamp.   Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA

Tim R <timothy42b@aol.com>: May 29 05:57AM -0700 > Putting a lamp out of position is not immediately fatal, but it will shorten the life of the lamp.   > Peter Wieck > Melrose Park, PA   Given that most applications are base up, would there be an advantage to choosing CFL vs LED?   My LED bulbs seem to have a heat sink. CFLs don't, I've taken a couple of failed ones apart to see what's inside. Is there gas inside the envelope of an LED, so it transfers some heat to the bulb shape?   Any heat source generates convection air flow, as long as the fixture isn't enclosed.

Tim R <timothy42b@aol.com>: May 29 06:13AM -0700 Now I know what's inside an LED:   https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=inside+led+bulb&sid=26254C6E79A4645C0E2F4105785965D7&jsoncbid=0&ru=%2fsearch%3fq%3dinside%2bled%2bbulb%26FORM%3dQSRE1&view=detail&mmscn=vwrc&mid=56A1E79FC2CF5978082256A1E79FC2CF59780822&FORM=WRVORC

tabbypurr@gmail.com: May 29 08:11AM -0700 > You are about 3 years behind the times with LEDs. Suffice it that that is an eternity in the lighting business. And about covers your very nearly complete ignorance of what is in the market today.   > Peter Wieck > Melrose Park, PA   Er no, that is what's standard fare for domestic lighting.     NT

"pfjw@aol.com" <peterwieck33@gmail.com>: May 29 08:46AM -0700 > Er no, that is what's standard fare for domestic lighting.   Is GB really that far behind the rest of the world? Or is it just you?   Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA

"pfjw@aol.com" <peterwieck33@gmail.com>: May 28 12:09PM -0700 The Troll is back. Please do not feed the troll!   Now, one may always shop locally and pay cash. No trail. But, that would be beyond the troll's already limited thought process.   Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA

"Arlen G. Holder" <arlingholder@nospam.net>: May 29 06:45AM On Sat, 18 May 2019 12:05:45 -0500, Fox's Mercantile wrote:   > Piss the fuck off.   Hi Snit,   Some day, you'll post as an adult would Snit, & not as a child does. o Apparently not today.

Foxs Mercantile <jdangus@att.net>: May 29 06:12AM -0500 On 5/29/2019 1:45 AM, Arlen G. Holder wrote:   > Hi Snit,   > Some day, you'll post as an adult would Snit, & not as a child does. > o Apparently not today.   It only took you 11 days to reply. Too busy masturbating listening to yourself spout meaningless bullshit?   If you think you're pissing me off by calling me snit, you are sadly mistaken. You're just proving, once again, what an ignorant cunt you are.     -- Jeff-1.0 wa6fwi http://www.foxsmercantile.com   --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com

Stephen Wolstenholme <steve@easynn.com>: May 29 01:46PM +0100 On Tue, 28 May 2019 12:09:37 -0700 (PDT), "pfjw@aol.com"   >The Troll is back. Please do not feed the troll!   You just did!

Foxs Mercantile <jdangus@att.net>: May 29 09:52AM -0500 On 5/29/2019 7:46 AM, Stephen Wolstenholme wrote: > <peterwieck33@gmail.com> wrote:   >> The Troll is back. Please do not feed the troll!   > You just did!   No, "feeding the Troll" is engaging it in what ever stupid bullshit they are posting.   -- Jeff-1.0 wa6fwi http://www.foxsmercantile.com   --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com

"Arlen G. Holder" <arlingholder@nospam.net>: May 29 03:38PM On Wed, 29 May 2019 06:12:57 -0500, Foxs Mercantile wrote:   > Too busy masturbating listening to yourself spout meaningless bullshit?   Is your's the response of an adult, Snit?

Charlie+ <charlie@xxx.net>: May 29 07:30AM +0100 Relating to childrens toys, powered noise cancelling earphones etc, ie small low power items and bodging repairs! : Ocasionally there is a need to replace a LiPo single cell 2 lead protected cell and I only have a 3 lead cell suitably sized to use. As far as I know the third lead is only used for sense monitoring, so just using the 2 (+,-) leads should be fine but anyone done this and knows the answer? I think the battery protection should work the same without the third lead, or should the third lead be tied to (-)? C+

"pfjw@aol.com" <peterwieck33@gmail.com>: May 28 12:05PM -0700 Why does this idiot troll have any traction in this group whatsoever?   Any idiot that would use a cell-phone or any similar device to check critical measurements in a vehicle deserves exactly what it gets. The sad part, of course, is when it gets what it deserves, it is more than likely to take one-or-more innocents with it. Of course, one is entirely and fully entitled to compete for a Darwin Award, but not to threaten others in the process.   Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA

Foxs Mercantile <jdangus@att.net>: May 28 10:32PM -0500 > Why does this idiot troll have any traction in this group whatsoever?   "Like"   -- Jeff-1.0 wa6fwi http://www.foxsmercantile.com   --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com

hdekgec@gmail.com: May 28 09:46AM -0700

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puli3ib@gmail.com: May 28 06:35AM -0700 Hi Cristian. I´m looking for the same BIOS. Do you have it?

Look165 <look165@numericable.fr>: May 28 04:04PM +0200 Grains BIOS repair, they have a lot of BIOS.

Tim R <timothy42b@aol.com>: May 27 03:54PM -0700 On Saturday, May 25, 2019 at 4:42:30 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote: > lights and read something on how they work. > [Quiz] Why are plants green, but LED grow lights produce very little > green light?   I'm not into indoor gardening and doubt I ever will be - not that many years left to experiment.   In the 70s I did an indoor garden for a season. It did very well with four foot fluourescents, the standard T12 that was in use back then. I think I used six tubes, four cool white and two warm white, for the balance.   I've read about LED grow lights and it all looked like advertising hype with no science behind it. Perhaps there have been some advances. I've been told the illegal growers mostly used metal halide fixtures, not something I'd want in my house.

Terry Schwartz <tschw10117@aol.com>: May 27 04:34PM -0700 > CFLs don't explode or start fires. One thing I've encountered are many people who describe events that are obviously not explosions as explosions.   > Green plants absorb & use red & blue light. Green light, when growing, is wasted.   > NT   I had a CFL start on fire. It was mounted base up in a can fixture. Luckily I was in the room at the time, or it might have taken down the entire house.

Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>: May 27 05:14PM -0700 On Mon, 27 May 2019 15:54:21 -0700 (PDT), Tim R <timothy42b@aol.com> wrote:   >> green light?   >I'm not into indoor gardening and doubt I ever will be - not that >many years left to experiment.   Not a problem if you don't inhale.   >with four foot fluourescents, the standard T12 that was in use back >then. I think I used six tubes, four cool white and two warm white, >for the balance.   At the time, the authorities were monitoring household electric bills. Any sudden and stable rise in consumption implied that the household was using artificial lighting to grow something.   >I've read about LED grow lights and it all looked like advertising >hype with no science behind it. Perhaps there have been some advances.   Is NASA a sufficiently credible source? "Sole-Source Lighting for Controlled-Environment Agriculture" <https://ntrs.nasa.gov/search.jsp?R=20150009399> There's been quite a bit of research on agriculture in space and in non-solar environments.   Try searching Google Scholar for research reports: <https://scholar.google.com> For example: <https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=1%2C5&as_vis=1&q=LED+grow+light+agriculture&btnG=>   >I've been told the illegal growers mostly used metal halide fixtures, >not something I'd want in my house.   It's now legal to grow marijuana in California. Much of the indoor and underground farms have moved outdoors.   -- Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>: May 27 05:23PM -0700 >> green light? >> <https://www.google.com/search?q=LED+grow+lights&tbm=isch>   >Green plants absorb & use red & blue light. Green light, when growing, is wasted.   Close enough but not quite complete. We see objects by the wavelengths (colors) the object does NOT absorb, but does reflect. Plants are generally green and therefore do NOT absorb green wavelengths. Therefore, wasting power generating light in the green part of the spectrum is largely wasted on plants.   Or so I thought. "Sole-Source Lighting for Controlled-Environment Agriculture" <https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20150009399.pdf> From a summary of the above article, it seems that plants do find a little green light useful: <https://advancedledlights.com/blog/technology/nasa-research-optimum-light-wavelengths-plant-growth/> Green Light (500 - 600 nm) was once thought not to be necessary for plants, but recent studies have discovered this wavelength penetrates through thick top canopies to support the leaves in the lower canopy.   -- Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Tim R <timothy42b@aol.com>: May 27 05:53PM -0700 Thanks for the links, and the google scholar reference.   Interesting stuff.   I guess I probably can't buy high powered blue and red LED lamps at Home Depot. I guess I could test a high watt LED bulb over a plant some time, something legal of course.   I'm no longer worried about my super CFL exploding. I got my thermometer out to test it, and................it didn't work. The bulb I mean. The other lamps in the bag work okay, so I didn't get totally taken, but I was looking forward to seeing a miniature sun in my basement.

tabbypurr@gmail.com: May 27 11:10PM -0700 On Tuesday, 28 May 2019 01:14:10 UTC+1, Jeff Liebermann wrote:   > At the time, the authorities were monitoring household electric bills. > Any sudden and stable rise in consumption implied that the household > was using artificial lighting to grow something.   Now the technique is to fly over with IR imagine camera, and see hot lofts.   > <https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=1%2C5&as_vis=1&q=LED+grow+light+agriculture&btnG=>   > >I've been told the illegal growers mostly used metal halide fixtures, > >not something I'd want in my house.   AIUI LP sodium are still more efficient, but not spectrally complete, so not suitable as the sole light source.     NT

tabbypurr@gmail.com: May 27 11:13PM -0700 On Tuesday, 28 May 2019 01:23:19 UTC+1, Jeff Liebermann wrote: > for plants, but recent studies have discovered this wavelength > penetrates through thick top canopies to support the leaves in > the lower canopy.   If you're growing at home, the green is nearly all wasted as little gets absorbed. It therefore doesn't make sense to produce it - subject to an assortment of conditions, eg if you want white light for other reasons.     NT

Tim R <timothy42b@aol.com>: May 27 04:02PM -0700 I think the Curtis Mathes VCR I bought had a wired remote.   I paid extra for a lifetime membership on video rentals. Haven't got my money's worth yet.

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tabbypurr@gmail.com: May 26 10:14AM -0700 On Friday, 24 May 2019 00:22:54 UTC+1, tabby wrote:   > > > I have a whole pile of cheap meters as well as good ones. They're useful IME.   > > Like I said..   > clearly not.   FWIW I bought them to dot them around in various places where formerly I'd have had to go fetch a nice meter or forego using one at all. They can go where loss or damage are a risk with little concern. They've saved time & enabled quick easy repairs. I don't normally need accuracy or a CAT 3 rating to get something working. They paid back their cost (2.44 each) in a few days IIRC, an ROI that's hard to beat. Any engineer should be able to undersand the utility of that.   Yes I require accuracy at times, and have the datrons to do that. These tiddlers are not for those occasions.     NT

Ralph Mowery <rmowery28146@earthlink.net>: May 26 03:09PM -0400 In article <1e50615d-38e0-4f31-b07b-a2af02c4bfb4@googlegroups.com>, tabbypurr@gmail.com says...   > FWIW I bought them to dot them around in various places where formerly I'd have had to go fetch a nice meter or forego using one at all. They can go where loss or damage are a risk with little concern. They've saved time & enabled quick easy repairs. I don't normally need accuracy or a CAT 3 rating to get something working. They paid back their cost (2.44 each) in a few days IIRC, an ROI that's hard to beat. Any engineer should be able to undersand the utility of that.   > Yes I require accuracy at times, and have the datrons to do that. These tiddlers are not for those occasions.   I have 4 or 5 of the 'Free' Harbor Freight metes. Verified them against a Fluke meter that was verified against some very high accurate lab gear. The HF meters are not that far off and work fine especially for a go/no go test. Does it really matter if the house voltage is 120 or 123 volts ? I have on in my truck and some in places around the house as I don't want to go the shop on the basement for a better meter.

"jfeng@my-deja.com" <jfeng@my-deja.com>: May 27 09:18AM -0700 On Sunday, May 26, 2019 at 12:09:29 PM UTC-7, Ralph Mowery wrote: > I have 4 or 5 of the 'Free' Harbor Freight metes. Verified them against a > Fluke meter that was verified against some very high accurate lab gear. The HF > meters are not that far off and work fine especially for a go/no go test.   My HF meters are all pretty accurate, as long as the battery is fresh. My yellow ones do not have any low-battery indicator, so the only hint is when the readings do not make any sense (which may be a challenge for an inexperienced user).

Mike <ham789@netscape.net>: May 21 10:31PM -0700 > I purchased a 3 pack of the model 350 at Costco. Everyone one of them has this issue. 3 months is about right. Put new batteries in all of them and a few months later they all are virtually drained of battery life.   > Matt C   This is a common problem with the electronic switching.   google flashlight parasitic drain   A flashlight that's dead when you need it is worthless. Take 'em back to Costco.   Newer flashlights advertise "no parasitic drain". Get one that explicitly states that. Anything else is a crap shoot.

Look165 <look165@numericable.fr>: May 21 11:36AM +0200 I think NiMH is 1.2V while cells are 1.5V.

"Arlen G. Holder" <arlingholder@nospam.net>: May 22 06:49AM Thanks to purposefully helpful suggestions by rbowman & Clare Snyder in this thread, we have five potential replacement free mail services to consider.   Moving the on-topic potluck forward, I add value by reporting that I tested for the team the following five mail services, all of which seem to be potentially viable as Gmail replacements; however, my assessment is based only on _preliminary_ tests over the past couple of days only (where time will tell whether these five mail services are viable Google alternatives). o GMX <https://www.gmx.com/mail/> o Proton Mail <https://protonmail.com/> o Tutanota <https://tutanota.com/> o Yandex <https://mail.yandex.com/> o Zoho <https://www.zoho.com/mail/>   GMX: o Unknown storage limit o Required Mr or Ms gender selection o Required a first & last name o Required a country, and, for the USA, a state o Required a DOB o Password must be at least 8 characters o Required a password-recovery selection (SMS or email) o Required a phone number for SMS verification (but didn't use it???) o Required captcha (easy fire-hydrant single-pass stuff) o Doesn't inform you the username is valid until late in the game   Proton: o 500MB storage & 150 messages per day limit o Allows choice of domain (protonmail.com, protonmail.ch) o Recovery email is optional o Doesn't require gender or name or DOB or location or phone, etc. o Informs you in real time whether the username is taken or available o Password must be at least 6 characters o Choice of verification by captcha, email, sms, or donation o Captcha is easy one-pass fire-hydrant stuff o Asks to "show notifications" (which you can block or allow)   Tutanota: o 1 GB limit o Doesn't require gender or name or DOB or location or phone, etc. o Requires a strong password of undetermined characters (at least 8) o Tells you the password cannot be reset (so choose wisely, I guess) o Informs you in real time whether the username is taken or available o Asks you to write down 64 hex character "recovery code"   Yandex: o Unknown storage limit o Requires only first name & surname o Informs you in real time whether the username is taken or available o Requires a strong password of undetermined characters (at least 8) o Asks for telephone number but lets you skip in favor of security question o Allows you to write your own custom security question & custom answer o Requires a simple Captcha-like typing of screenshot words   Zoho o 5GB storage limit o Requires only first name & last name o Username must be more than 6 characters o Password literally requires 8 letters even if it's much longer than that o Requires mobile phone number to send SMS verification code o Accepts free second-line mobile phone software SMS numbers though o Asks to enable 2FA but you can skip it "for now" o Save the numeric "user id" which shows up after you create the account   If you have data to share to improve the quick summary above, or, if you know of _other_ free gmail service replacements, please let us know as Usenet is a potluck where everyone is expected to bring something of value to share.

The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com>: May 22 12:20PM -0700 On 05/22/2019 07:25 AM, rbowman wrote: > I trust the Russians more than our homegrown Stasi. I've been using > Kaspersky on my Windows boxes for a long time. If it's stealing my data > at least it doesn't let other people grab it.   The Russian guy who wrote the EBookDroid app provides excellent customer service for an absolute pittance. We asked him how we could pay more (apparently paypal doesn't work in Russia), but he said just buy the 'pro' app. He also speaks (or at least writes) excellent English, such that I wonder if he's just pretending to be Russian.   -- Cheers, Bev "Everyone ought to stop and smell crayons once in a while." -- DA

rbowman <bowman@montana.com>: May 22 08:25AM -0600 On 05/22/2019 12:49 AM, Arlen G. Holder wrote: > o Asks for telephone number but lets you skip in favor of security question > o Allows you to write your own custom security question & custom answer > o Requires a simple Captcha-like typing of screenshot words   Russian collusion! The Russians are coming! Oddly I'm at the point where I trust the Russians more than our homegrown Stasi. I've been using Kaspersky on my Windows boxes for a long time. If it's stealing my data at least it doesn't let other people grab it.

Cursitor Doom <curd@notformail.com>: May 21 10:51PM On Tue, 21 May 2019 10:20:02 -0400, Ralph Mowery wrote:     > I think that hydrogen may be the smallest atom, but they often join in > pairs to make up a larger molicule. Some other atoms that are normally > gas do the same thing.   Oh boy. Where do I start?       -- This message may be freely reproduced without limit or charge only via the Usenet protocol. Reproduction in whole or part through other protocols, whether for profit or not, is conditional upon a charge of GBP10.00 per reproduction. Publication in this manner via non-Usenet protocols constitutes acceptance of this condition.

Eremita Analogico <LEDITApaolo.carrer@DALNASOlibero.it>: May 27 12:47PM +0200 Il 26/05/2019 17:40, Jeff Liebermann ha scritto: > If there's no oscillation, and it's not one of the nearby components, > the likely culprit is a blown 7016. Replacements are available: > <https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=7106+a%2Fd>   Ok, thanks to all. I have checked the dual op-amp and the CD4070 and both is ok. I have checked the capacitor and resistor at pins 38, 39, 40 of 7106 (clock) and the values are correct, BUT if I power on the DMM without capacitor at pin 38 the display is perfect 00.0 without ghost segments (but obviously without any A/D conversion). This is a significant symptom? Replacing capacitor with another of same value (100p) make always display corrupted. I have 3 7106 and I checked with all, same problem.   The display is mounted in a small PCB connected to main PCB through a flat plastic flexible "foil" with argent traces, pressed to pcbs with the plastic support of small display pcb. The resistence between every pin of 7106 and pads in small pcb is around 3 ohm. From small pcb to display there are classical siliconic conductive strips that I have carefully cleaned, together with plastic flexible foil.   Where I can try to found the fault? Thanks.

tabbypurr@gmail.com: May 26 10:01AM -0700 On Saturday, 25 May 2019 21:42:30 UTC+1, Jeff Liebermann wrote: > [Quiz] Why are plants green, but LED grow lights produce very little > green light? > <https://www.google.com/search?q=LED+grow+lights&tbm=isch>   CFLs don't explode or start fires. One thing I've encountered are many people who describe events that are obviously not explosions as explosions.   Green plants absorb & use red & blue light. Green light, when growing, is wasted.     NT

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