its like agreeing to play blind man's buff in the dark
and when it's your turn to put the blindfold on
the lights are turned on
and you're the only fool in the dark

afterall that,
an email asking me what my resolution for 2007 is

lead me to think..

celia's resolutions
1. to be more graceful
2. to work harder this coming year
3. to actually start meeting up with people who matter

so the lot of you
keep me in check.

trust. is a funny funny thing with me-- unlike the wide-eyed boyscout, i tend to take the more conservative stand (or cynical, according to him). i don't trust until you prove yourself that you can be trusted.
or at least i need to believe that i can trust you.

funny, i muse, why would i need to prove that i am trust worthy to others, if faced with someone just like me, who needs to have the proof of my trustworthiness. i guess i don't need people to prove themselves. it's purely an entirely internal dialogue that goes on in my head.

that sounded like namby pamby rambling-- but that's alright, i've got it sorted out in my head.

on a separate note, too many people live in the past.
i used to be a good student
i used to work 12 hours a day
i used to have an hour glass figure
i used to be skinny
i used to have 6 pecs
i used to go partying every night
i used to get suspended from school
i used to be the best cadet
i used to be hot
i used to
i used to

haiya.
live in the NOW pls.
pffft.

no christmas magic this year.
2007 will be better.

i k e a and off we gooooooo

our first real date in a long time.

so the birthday came and went--
the primary school chickkies threw me a surprise.
:) the pictures tell the story.
(thank you for the lovely food and the even lovelier time)



fringed, all of us. and proud of it. except maybe ting, hers was urm.. well.


wanting cannot count.


this is 5. (part of our series of finger flashing numbers. we got up to 10!)


what's celia's birthday with no sparklers?


what's celia's birthday without a celia dance? this one was a cross between daph's ballet and li's hiphop. wanting's dance is too hardcore for me ah, i was afraid i would fall off a bar table.


the girl who never stopped caring for me, though time got between us, i thank you, for that sunrise openness, for those hours of advice, for letting me into your heart. i love you ting, and i love the person inside too. still the man


i think of the four of us, this one's the oldest, but the baby of us all--the girl who talked hours with me on the phone, who cried with me, and always took my side in the friend-don't-friend game, without whom primary school life would have been lonely as hell. i miss you daph.


i shouldn't have to say i love you, lili, i'm sure you know by now. i wouldn't be who i am without you. cheers, cos here's to more supper nights, and more hen parties, and more laughter, and more tears(we wouldn't be who we are without them), more bitch fests and more lalaland days.

You scored as Faerie. Faerie: Aren't you a cute little flying person? Faeries are earth spirits. They live among each element completely hidden. They have cousins called Pixies. Pixies however, are very mischevious. They enjoy tormenting other creatures for fun. Little pranksters.. I hope you never meet one. Pixies have a bad reputation for finding a creature and clinging to them until death. Faeries can be somewhat close to a Pixie, but mostly they are loving, playful, and carry with them a child-like enthusiasm for life. Hide among the pedals of a Daisy, you are a Faerie. Faerie 92% Mermaid 75% Angel 75% WereWolf 25% Dragon 25% Demon 25% What Mythological Creature are you? (Cool Pics!) created with QuizFarm.com

O_o who makes these quizzes??
damnit. i wanted the bubble one.

the little boy was tired, and lost. circles and circles, and back at the same place. his arms were breaking from the sheer weight of the things he carried, crying and screaming his muscles were for relief. it wasn't like he was 8 feet tall and could see the terrain of the land and find the path.

the guiding faries said to him, "follow your heart", like it's any advice at all.

so weeping, he sat down and took stock of the baggage. everything else he couldn't set down, because that was his crosses to bear, the mission to finish, without which his walk through the woods were for nought.

and then he felt it, the little toy boat in his pocket. the lovely wooden carved boat with its tiny sails of blue and white. he looked at it and he gingerly touched the little rigs and the sailing ropes. he would take it out every night before, and polished it, and put it on the table by his bed, so it was the last thing he saw when he slept and the first thing when he woke. he stared at it for a while or two, and carefully set it down on the rock beside his feet.

he knew it was a small weight. a small baggage to carry, but it was the only weight he could put down, because the others were more dire, more pressing.

so he hardened his heart, and as he turned away, the wind knocked the pretty little boat off its perch into the sand.

the toy he treasured, and loved to bits now lay bruised and half sunk into the sand. it's masts no longer upright, it's sails no longer clean. and it hurt his heart fiercely.

he stared and stared, but time was running out and not a luxury to have. and so he shut his eyes and turned away, the little boy walked away, refusing to turn behind to see what was left of the boat, or think about what would happen to that precious boat that was so used to its place on the mantle, now lying wrecked in the sand.

someone else would find it, he comforted himself. someone else would polish it and love it.

and as his back turns, the little boat's sails by abrasion of the sand in the wind, lay limp.

i understand why.
but i don't have to like it.

"do you need sometime to think about it?"

"how much time do we have?"

"the rest of our lives"

"that's true"



"lets take a week"

give me eyes that i may see the truth
give me strength to do what i need to do
and give me, above all, a rational mind.

hahaha

are we going to zoukout this year?

tonight i took the time to look into the night
and sit there and think about old wounds and fresh ones

of limbs intermingled under one blanket
of tears on the pillow
of lies and truth and the fine line between
of secret blogs and reading blogs in secret
of magic lines and angry words
of serendipity-s and giggles in the car
of dancing and laughing
of turning off the light and aircons or fans
of room one and baths
of mothers and fathers
of guppies and farms

and the sound of the night
the sound of the night
took my breath away.

and silently and as gently as they could fall
the cheeks grow damp
though gently they fell

because right now i feel loved
i feel loved and yet i feel quite quite lonely
silent, and trapped in the warps of my mind.

my lovely lovely brillant mind,
which somehow somehow lost its
excellence and shine--
distorted contorted bent into shape
by my realities.

today the family leaves for malaysia
road trip, just the 5 of us.
i wonder just how much fun
and how many fights we will have

but i know i need the break
we all do.

let the parties begin!
nothing, and i mean nothing
feels this good.

It's beginning to look a lot like Christmas
Soon the bells will start
And the thing that will make them ring
Is the carol that you sing
Right within your heart

need good books. pls recommend

ethics end on friday, 5pm.. so the countdown begins.


nothing non-fiction, nothing fantasy, nothing to do with politics or war, nothing to do with mass killings and gore and blood everywhere and having images in your head that you're afraid to sleep with, nothing with death of dog (just a quirk), nothing thrashy, nothing depressing (like never let me go, kazuo ishiguro).

if all else fails then i'm gonna read the classics, and bear the comments of the sisters calling me a geek.
a week of iliad. :) happy girl.

in my mind, married people are matured people.
people who lock themselves down for life (legally) to one other mate
one other body, one other lover
have to be matured.
the whole for richer for poorer, for better or worse,
have to be pretty matured to say those words.

but ahaha.
the oldie in the house had a party.

. . . .
the little bits of my working brain
somehow slipped out.

leaked out of my ears while i didn't notice
so EBITDA= earnings before int exp tax amort and depre
are beyond my reach, as of less than 24 hours before doom.

and the fuzz behind my eyes refuses to clear
and all i think of is that galaxy screen saver of the old windows
where you seem to be hurling towards the eternity of stars.

hoo boy.

who's feeling great??

*hands stay stuck to side"

i know i'm really losing it
because i woke up this morning
and immediately upon realisation of being awake
i began to tear up

i used to be afraid of sleep
afraid i'd miss out on the fun
but now, now being awake,
sleep's much more comforting,

the little one made it to SCGS, thanks all for your concern.

they say to us, "oh the PSLE is just a tool to get you to secondary school"
then they say " the o'levels are the test of your memory."
then they say "the real test of a SMART student is the A levels, you can't just memorise, you need to use your brain"

so i did well then. must be somewhat smart, i tell myself.
but then i came here
and i'm not feeling very smart at all.
not even a little bit.

so what, is this a test of?

maybe i shall move to that little farm in jalan kayu, the run down place with the old toothless couple.
and raise dogs for a living
and will always have the wag of the little tails and the smell of the milky breath.
that make me very happy.

then i can say "hey cherie, have a cockerspaniel!"
"hey howie, here's a pug!"
"hey ruben, here's a choc lab!"
"hey sooli, here's a pom!"
"hey keefe, here's a rottweiler!"
"hey dad, here's a german shepard!"
"hey mom, here's a westie!"
"hey ann, here's a retriver!"
"hey huawei, here's a jackrussell!"
"hey kimmy, here's a beagle!"

and i will be very happy.

study week is probably the worst time
to get myself hooked on BOSTON LEGAL
:|

rawwwwwwwwwhhhh.
thursday's here.
*herald the bells of doom*

give me strength. patience. discipline.

and rest when its time to rest.

i nearly burst a side laughing over this.
it's hilarious.
it's worth every minute

in a few hours
the church bells will ring

i hope this day becomes the best day of your life.
i do.

for some reason
i wish i were there with them. now.

kinda sad that this is our last class together.
thank you all, for those crazy moments
i heart this group.
:)
it's been hard finding friends in acctancy
but these people made it easy.

i havent quite slept.

this is what i have been watching the past hour.
had me sobbing. have ur tissues ready.

i know its been weeks, but i still miss that bloke.
i missed the memorial service on that day itself
but i watched nearly 16 hours of animal planet
when they did the back to back irwin showcase.

the full ONE hour long, stevo memorial.

hahaha, seriously funny
they're perfectly lip-syncing to that dumbass frog song.

ohhh this day can only get better
because it's as low as it can get

exams + pms + failing corp test (badly compared to the median of the class) + running nose + fighting with the boyscout + 3 hours of class

haiyaaaaa
you know what i dont like?
people blogging all intellectual-like
about political/social issues and whatnots
when in fact if you read carefully
and if you actually know the subject they are talking about
or sorry, professing to know about

the views are not their own
and probably overheard in the bus
or over a conversation
or off wikipedia

come on.

call a toad a toad.

(and you. being gay is not a disease or a psychological problem; AND they can't stand you either.)

i love these rainy days
perfect for hiding under this cacoon
this cacoon of self loathing (loving)
of insercurities and confidence
of tears and laughter

i've found the wonderful world of torrents.
yayaya. i know i'm late.
:)

gilmore. grey's.boston legal.
come december..i haveeeeeeee prison break! heehee.

my favourite book of all times has gotta be
to kill a mocking bird, by harper lee.

how many times have i read it?
at least 13 times.

currently reading: sons and lovers, d h lawerence

Because She Would Ask Me Why I Loved Her
by Christopher Brennan (1870-1932)

If questioning would make us wise
No eyes would ever gaze in eyes;
If all our tale were told in speech
No mouths would wander each to each.

Were spirits free from mortal mesh
And love not bound in hearts of flesh
No aching breasts would yearn to meet
And find their ecstasy complete.

For who is there that lives and knows
The secret powers by which he grows?
Were knowledge all, what were our need
To thrill and faint and sweetly bleed?

Then seek not, sweet, the "If" and "Why"
I love you now until I die.
For I must love because I live
And life in me is what you give.

i came home today to find such lovely gifts.


:) thank you for thinking of me.

the pink strawberry caramel timtams i likeeeee.

i enjoyed the morning
:) i'm sorry you'd get into trouble for it

there is a resonance when you put down the phone
a resonance that buzzes in my blood
and festers in the brain
eating amd gnawing away
like the yellowed petals of an infection

i sat down and i cried today
from the sheer load of things left undone
and the loving words unsaid

because i needed to be near you
but you couldnt hear my calling


with one i feel like a grown woman
stilletos and french perfume
with the other i feel like a little child
candied smiles and stockinged feet

feeling a tad too emotional for my own liking

today was a bad freak out day.
tomorrow will be better.

things to do from 12-3

finish ft homework
pick invite from pearlyn
corp reporting with sya

that is an awful lot for 3 friggin hours.
siggggghhhh

Jay The Americans--come a little bit closer

In a little café just the other side of the border
She was just sitting there givin' me looks that made my mouth water
So I started walking her way
She belonged to that man, José
And I knew, yes I knew I should leave
When I heard her say, yeah

Come a little bit closer
You're my kind of man
So big and so strong
Come a little bit closer
I'm all alone
And the night is so long

So we started to dance
In my arms, she felt so inviting
That I just couldn't resist
Just one little kiss so exciting
Then I heard the guitar player say
"Vamoose, José's on his way"
Then I knew, yes I knew I should run
But then I heard her say, yeah

Come a little bit closer
You're my kind of man
So big and so strong
Come a little bit closer
I'm all alone
And the night is so long

------ instrumental break ------

Then the music stopped
When I looked the café was empty
Then I heard José say
"Man you know you're in trouble plenty"
So I dropped my drink from my hand
And through the window I ran
And as I rode away
I could hear her say to José, yeah

Come a little bit closer
You're my kind of man
So big and so strong
Come a little bit closer
I'm all alone
And the night is so long

La la-la-la la-la
La la-la-la la-la
Ho ho la-la
La la la-la

our ethics presentation is finally over!~





my lovelies, lovelies.
huiying, yvonne & grace.
*hugs*

for some reason today i feel this surge of self-pity
must be because of the frickin cramps
which i cannot seem to shake despite
the number of pink pills i've popped

today i feel, for a lack of a better word,
weird.
w e i r d like i want to laugh and cry out loud
abit like those schizo AJ days when we'd
laugh and cry and eat and laugh and cry
part of me now feels insanely jealous
yet insanely loving

part of me feels not special
and wants to melt under the table to sleep
all of me feels weary
but my eyes are artificially bright
with an artificial gleam.

part of me is angry, because while you say i'm
your first love, it isn't totally true
and we both know it.
and sometimes we sit in the car and it feels even
wider a chasm.

my ethics class at 8.30 hits me like a sleeping pill
pulling me under the words
dragged under the currents of need to sleep
groan

today. tomorrow, then it'll be over.
untl monday. when the mad rush begins again.

-.- tax planning is a lullaby
and in this room, time seems to warp
and slowwwwww down to a point which
pricks my skin.

yellow orbs swirling
and part of me just crashes,
simply because you're
a million miles away.

and the worst part of the distance?
that would have to be the unequal unequal affection
because i miss you
but you don't see it.

because you stopped seeing it.

rawh.

'just rawhhh'

happy belated burfday howie.

i was just reading some old posts from the old blogs
and i think to myself i think i got dumber.

emotionally more sound?
i also don't think so.

wanna read also?
for the hard-core celia fans
flowerfall
faeriedances
pingspeaks

used to have such witty posts ya
now, just rambling bambling.

oh hahahaha
little hypocrite.

some people reap what they sow
and the sins of the past
never really go away.

and they'll come back and bite you
on your not-there-flat-ass.

oh dumdididoodoo.
liar liar pants on fire.

mish mash

because i'm not perfect
because there are so many things beyond my reach
straining my fingertips and my feet sore from standing on tiptoes
just that little bit more, from below
but seen from above, it seems too damn far away.

feeling edgy is not the right word
ready for an explosion. or implosion.
whichever is worse.

coupled with all that
i've got a 90 min presentation
& a corp reporting test on fri & sat.

and i haven't begun jack-shit for either.
i wanted to get it done during the weekend
but i put it off thinking i had the time

and now it's tuesday, a public holiday
and i still haven't done jack-shit
and my achy breaky jittery heart
doesnt want to settle down to getting
anything done.

my body betrays me
as i drift off to sleep.

(still no mood for work)
tonight. tonight.
(yah, right)

i need to snap out of this.
perhaps after the nap.

what do you do when your world lets you down?

you cling, and fight to hold on

or sometimes, the time comes when you can fight no more
and have to do the only thing:
let it go.

everynow and then, as the boyscout and the bestfriend would attest to, i change my ambition. yes, horror of horrors since i'm a student of accountancy, school of accountancy, singapore management university.

a while back i wanted to buy a farm and breed puppies and keep them all for myself, see, there's this rather huge plot of land in jalan kayu on which sits a very run-down old farm, adn i always wanted to buy it off the old couple and raise puppies. think of all those golden retriever, yorkie pups i could have!!

anyway, now that i have hopped onto the "da-vinci-code" bandwagon, yes, finally reading it after its been years since it was released, and the copy i have is the special illustrated edition, i think now i want to be an art historian. not like langdon and study symbology (haha), but i think i'd like to spend hours pouring over art artifacts.

maybe become a curator; although what exactly does a curator do?
i think dinosaur bones are rather intriging.. but human bones.. no way. seriously, studying old bones?? yeccck.
in a million years, assuming the world hasn't come to an end-- i dont want funky street punks studying my bones.

take the organs when i die, the skin if you want.
use the joints you want, take the lot, then burn the rest

but no thanks if you wanna preserve it and study it a million yrs from now.

da vinci's brillant, isn't he?

am a sticker for deadlines.

The innocent victims of Internet child abuse cannot speak for themselves.

But you can.

With your help, we can eradicate this evil trade.

We do not need your money.

We need you to light a candle of support .

We're aiming to light at least One Million Candles by December 31, 2006.

This petition will be used to encourage governments, politicians, financial institutions, payment organisations, Internet service providers, technology companies and law enforcement agencies to eradicate the commercial viability of online child abuse.

They have the power to work together. You have the power to get them to take action.

Please light your candle at lightamillioncandles.com or send an email of support to light@lightamillioncandles.com.

Together, we can destroy the commercial viability of Internet child abuse sites that are destroying the lives of innocent children.

i've lit one, light yours today

sleepover

this, that, oh whatever.

that's just how i'm feeling.
the things you're telling me
you, you, you and you.

this, or that, oh whatever.
maybe part of me doesn't want to know any more.

just so you know
watch your double standards.
cos you know
i'm just feeling whatever
about you, you, you and you.

( i just cracked up when i saw this picture,
i think it's damn funny)

wedding prep is underway
everyone's involved with cards and gifts
and my golly are there ribbons. ribbons. ribbons.
the dogs got excited and tried to audition with the flower girl's head gear

a little tired
that's all

to you,
it'll get better.
it always does.
at the end of the day
remember why you're doing this
remember why you're doing this
and who it's for
and it'll get better
because then its about passion

not ambition, not money
not recognition, not success

stay outta my face
because i'm busy and i've things to do

mon
9am-11am school
12pm-5pm write ethics essay
5pm hand in ethics essay
5pm-7pm corp reporting
8pm-10pm meeting for work

tues
10am-12pm tax meeting
2pm-5pm meeting for work/rehearse
7pm-9pm final run through

wed
7am-12pm work

thurs
7am-12pm work
2pm-4pm meeting with sya

friday
7am-10am work

so bugger it.

**watch this schedule, it gets updated as the days go by.

no body understands
because i dont understand.

celia's immediate things to do
finish ethics essay due monday
finish consolidating FS
collect FS from locker
tax revision
corp meeting, sat @ 11

why is there no END to this rubbish?!
everytime i clear something
more comes up and i find myself
fighting fighting fighting to
fucking breathe.

it's too early in the morning, and we sulk in class.


maybe i can use an analogy of the situation.
like in we want to spend time, we do.
so we make arrangements and share the bright big bed
and we cuddle up and talk and laugh
but as the light goes out and as the candle is snuffed
we move to separate ends
under our separate covers and blankets and pillows
and sleep, not touching
not feeling
not there at all.

if i love You
if i love You
(thickness means
worlds inhabited by roamingly
stern bright faeries

if you love
me) distance is mind carefully
luminous with innumerable gnomes
Of complete dream

if we love each (shyly)
other, what clouds do or Silently
Flowers resembles beauty
less than our breathing

--ee cummings

for once, i don't have the words to describe the now.

just existing. just quietly looking forward to next week.

things to do:
1. internship report
2. CS report

just quiet, the girl is just feeling quiet.
and looking for some strength and a morsel of peace.

just a morsel.

my one true love

scoff all you want,
especially you cedar people that are still chuckling over my sad state of mastery of mandarin.


i know it's been years.
but boy oh boy oh boy.
i'm not groupie, neither am i big on the celebrity chase,
but hot is hot lah, they just don't make very many chinese boys
this way any more okay.
(and he's not gay okay?!)

(i just watched another run of liu xing hua yuan.)
i will pass over logan huntzberger and mc dreamy any day.

i know he didn't start off with good vocals, but voice training has certainly gone a long way! he bagged the Best Newcomer and Best Song (for the song, “Gravity”) Awards at the China Pop Music Awards (held in Beijing) in January 2005.
everyone say whaa


what's happened to F4 now??

by the way for fans, there's a CNN interview with F4 on youtube, but i think those american make up artistes somehow got their foundation colour wrong, cos they look rather orange, haha. and what's become of their usually nice silky tresses?? somehow things got screwy on CNN, but nonetheless, a decent interview.

note to young men..

Ok you guys out there that want my sister's number, or address, or msn and stuff... please register with either cherie or me. Since she "grew up"- to us it feels rather like it happened overnight- we decided that we need to step in to keep all the cannot-make-it guys at bay given her sudden popularity with species of the XY DNA type. Particularly if you guys are of the dunderhead-sified or ugly genre, please don't bother. If you are one of those interested, please send your resume- photo required- and we'd process you when we have time. Should you "pass" and make it to the next round of interview, we'd be needing photo-proof of your identity, said achievements and future plans.

Time was away and somewhere else,

the months of silences flew by
replaced by chitterchatter of girls
in blue uniforms with grey

the wife and me went to orchard today
for the first time in a long time.
Picked off right where we left off,
its been too long.

now that our buzz grp presentation is o-v-e-r...

pretty smiles






and monkey faces.







and the group,
the lovely gracie baby with her swishy hair
with housewife-cupcake-making huiying looking oh-so-happy;
and the sweetest little yvonne smiling away.






:) cheers, and the big project is gonna quite a hilarious time together.
and cheers, for making this friday morning this much fun.

i don't want to study anymore,
at least not till monday.

i'm tired.
and i'm gonna go watch a movie
after what i think will be a disastrous
tax test later.

come on, my steffie baby,
grab those oversized bags with
laptop + adapter + file + classnotes + textbook + maybe2textbooks + hp + wallet + SMUcard + mouse + money + feminine hygiene + lipstick + lipbalm + pencilbox + randomsweets + foolscap pad
yaya.

we're off to the cinema, my steffie baby & i.

this commercial,i found during ethics, i love
she's hot.

ethics

we're a rather odd bunch to put together
but i really like my ethics grp.
i think this might be,
the elected favourite grp this time around.

please don't, in future, irritate me before 8.30.
actually don't disturb me till 10 am if you can help it.

it starts of my day, in a pissed off itch
that sticks to my skin.

this manic crazy week has certainly taken its toll on me.
and my gawd, it's only tuesday, or rather, wee willy winky wednesday.

i'd be glad when its over, please stay off my back until friday night
cos that's when the last of the tests end.

(dog update? cooper has got ticks. quite alot of them.
with me not coming home much these days,
the poor dogs are suffering physically from my absence.)

yesterday, i drove the family to my favourite weekend hideaway @ the animal resort, jalan kayu.
and who's there, sitting so pretty in the corner?

cooper's sister!

my sunday school teacher told me once
she said, be careful who you fall in love with
because when you fall in love
you give a part of yourself to the person
a part of your heart you can't get back
and when you finally meet the one
you'd have less to give him.

a friend and i talked today of hurts and loves
of pasts, of presents, of seemingly too-lalaland future.

but in a rare burst of being open with names on my blog
today, here goes some shoutouts to the boys
who have a bit of my heart.

adriel who showed me what it was like to be loved, and treasured--who was my caccoon in the storm, who stood up for me no matter if i was in the wrong, and who appreciated and noticed the small things i did, and always called when he got home from school, dependable as the sun.

gabriel who to be honest i wasn't in love with completely, but nonetheless, showed me how to laugh at the situations that come my way, who coaxed smiles out of tears, who mastered making me sleep happy, bubbling and grinning.

ryan who showed me how to love someone with all that i had, who perfected the concept of dates, who was my greatest vice, yet my baddest attraction, who showed me love was about sacrifice, on both our parts, and who walked from his place to mine at 2 in the morning, to leave the next morning at 6 without ever complaining.

keefe who shows me love was not a balance sheet of things we do for the other, but a joy of giving, who makes me too addicted to naps wrapped in each other, who makes me dance in my step when we go out, as if the rest of the world faded away. who buys me little surprises, knowing it makes me smile, who holds my hand through my lowest, and remnds me my tears are too precious to waste.

i think i have been a lucky girl.

the night is long, but the day that follows is longer.
the whistling of the wind
does nothing to soothe this wandering heart
and awake, i scream
and pine mostly
for the quiet. quiet humming.

there is so much to be done
and time's a-wasting.

this tug-of-war is getting irritating.
i have no right, no right.

so yeah. okay.
i'm backing off.
i just wish it didnt get ugly,

:) i want nothing more @ this point, to get sleep
just fade into oblivion.

but there's a singing in my blood.

the girl can drive!

lets just get this over and done with.

rainy sundays

rainy sundays were made for these.